Moving Abroad - where to invest house sale?

haychq

Bostonerimus1 said:

Being a remote landlord is a real pain, even with a management company. You also don't mention anything about tax where you will be living, have you investigated the tax law in that country and double taxation treaties?

It’ll be KSA, don’t think there is any double taxation issues. A house I’m currently looking at is newly refurbished, has a sitting tenant with 12 months agreement. Am I too naive to think, it’s a place to park my money and forget about it? I have no experience of being a landlord but I was also trying to be as hands off as possible. Quite a few people have put me off BTL with horror stories lol

haychq

ToastLady said:

And yep, top tip on the sharia compliant savings, maybe I put emergency fund + part of the GIA portfolio there?

Thanks

Al Rayan allow you to bank with them if you live in UK or non-EU country, not all banks allow this, you'd have to check. UK banks insist on you having a UK address as far as I am aware. 
You may need to keep a UK mobile number for banking. Not sure if Al Rayan lets you use a foreign mobile number or not, you'd have to check.
When I lived abroad full time, before UK left EU, so didn't have my bank accounts closed, I kept a pay as you go UK mobile number, and just topped up every 90 days or sent a text to keep the number alive, which was vital for banking with an app. 

I’ve moved all my banks to the family home address and intend on keeping my number on an eSim to receive texts and calls. Also just going to close accounts I don’t actively use. Good shout about just making the phone PAYG - thank you

ToastLady

haychq said:

I’ve moved all my banks to the family home address and intend on keeping my number on an eSim to receive texts and calls. Also just going to close accounts I don’t actively use. Good shout about just making the phone PAYG - thank you

Excellent, looks like you are sorted. One more thing, it will cost a fortune for you to use mobile if you need to call any of your banks, or receive calls. Suggest using something like Skype or other Voip service. I invested in a Skype phone number years ago and have kept it, it's cheap for me, but I have no idea of current cost. You can just use plain basic Skype but means banks or others can't call you back. Of course many banks use Chat on mobile, so as long as you are using safe wi-fi or hot spotting from your new foreign mobile you will be fine.

artyboy

haychq said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

Being a remote landlord is a real pain, even with a management company. You also don't mention anything about tax where you will be living, have you investigated the tax law in that country and double taxation treaties?

It’ll be KSA, don’t think there is any double taxation issues. A house I’m currently looking at is newly refurbished, has a sitting tenant with 12 months agreement. Am I too naive to think, it’s a place to park my money and forget about it? I have no experience of being a landlord but I was also trying to be as hands off as possible. Quite a few people have put me off BTL with horror stories lol

I have friends that upped sticks to KSA a few years back and let out their UK apartment - no issues for them there, although they did use a managing agent and have had the 'perfect' stable tenant all the way through. While there are no double taxation issues (well obviously given the lack of tax in KSA...), there is a consideration around the tenant becoming accountable for tax due to HMRC when their landlord is nonresident.

Personally I wouldn't go your way as I'm not a BTL fan, but if it's what you want, good luck.

Incidentally, if you are intending to come back at some point, have you considered putting some of this money into a pension? Assuming you have relevant earnings this year that would allow more than the basic £2880 contribution...?

haychq

ToastLady said:

haychq said:

I’ve moved all my banks to the family home address and intend on keeping my number on an eSim to receive texts and calls. Also just going to close accounts I don’t actively use. Good shout about just making the phone PAYG - thank you

Excellent, looks like you are sorted. One more thing, it will cost a fortune for you to use mobile if you need to call any of your banks, or receive calls. Suggest using something like Skype or other Voip service. I invested in a Skype phone number years ago and have kept it, it's cheap for me, but I have no idea of current cost. You can just use plain basic Skype but means banks or others can't call you back. Of course many banks use Chat on mobile, so as long as you are using safe wi-fi or hot spotting from your new foreign mobile you will be fine.

Such a niche subject - thanks for the heads up, didn’t even cross my mind. I thought receiving is cheap. But calling certainly needs to be taken into account, as these countries are anti-VoIP. I need to try a few services. Pls share any other real life tips, very useful thanks 🙏 

haychq

artyboy said:

haychq said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

Being a remote landlord is a real pain, even with a management company. You also don't mention anything about tax where you will be living, have you investigated the tax law in that country and double taxation treaties?

It’ll be KSA, don’t think there is any double taxation issues. A house I’m currently looking at is newly refurbished, has a sitting tenant with 12 months agreement. Am I too naive to think, it’s a place to park my money and forget about it? I have no experience of being a landlord but I was also trying to be as hands off as possible. Quite a few people have put me off BTL with horror stories lol

I have friends that upped sticks to KSA a few years back and let out their UK apartment - no issues for them there, although they did use a managing agent and have had the 'perfect' stable tenant all the way through. While there are no double taxation issues (well obviously given the lack of tax in KSA...), there is a consideration around the tenant becoming accountable for tax due to HMRC when their landlord is nonresident.

Personally I wouldn't go your way as I'm not a BTL fan, but if it's what you want, good luck.

Incidentally, if you are intending to come back at some point, have you considered putting some of this money into a pension? Assuming you have relevant earnings this year that would allow more than the basic £2880 contribution...?

Perfect stable tenant - I guess that’s what everyone wants I’m hoping for a similar scenario.

Tenant becoming liable for which tax tho? They’d already be paying council tax etc. Any earnings will be in company structure. Can be used against pension as you said - solid advice. 

is the general hatred for BTL due to low return on investment? Tenant headaches etc..? I feel like I need bricks and mortar, maybe it’s psychological.

ToastLady

haychq said:

Such a niche subject - thanks for the heads up, didn’t even cross my mind. I thought receiving is cheap. But calling certainly needs to be taken into account, as these countries are anti-VoIP. I need to try a few services. Pls share any other real life tips, very useful thanks 🙏 

Receiving calls on UK mobile abroad is expensive, something to be avoided. Didn't know about the anti-Voip thing in Middle East countries, I was in Northern Cyprus and still spend a bit of time there. What are they like with VPN's? Probably anti that too I would imagine. 
Sorry for taking this way off the original topic. I can always PM you real life tips to keep this on topic.

artyboy

haychq said:

artyboy said:

haychq said:

Bostonerimus1 said:

Being a remote landlord is a real pain, even with a management company. You also don't mention anything about tax where you will be living, have you investigated the tax law in that country and double taxation treaties?

It’ll be KSA, don’t think there is any double taxation issues. A house I’m currently looking at is newly refurbished, has a sitting tenant with 12 months agreement. Am I too naive to think, it’s a place to park my money and forget about it? I have no experience of being a landlord but I was also trying to be as hands off as possible. Quite a few people have put me off BTL with horror stories lol

I have friends that upped sticks to KSA a few years back and let out their UK apartment - no issues for them there, although they did use a managing agent and have had the 'perfect' stable tenant all the way through. While there are no double taxation issues (well obviously given the lack of tax in KSA...), there is a consideration around the tenant becoming accountable for tax due to HMRC when their landlord is nonresident.

Personally I wouldn't go your way as I'm not a BTL fan, but if it's what you want, good luck.

Incidentally, if you are intending to come back at some point, have you considered putting some of this money into a pension? Assuming you have relevant earnings this year that would allow more than the basic £2880 contribution...?

Perfect stable tenant - I guess that’s what everyone wants I’m hoping for a similar scenario.

Tenant becoming liable for which tax tho? They’d already be paying council tax etc. Any earnings will be in company structure. Can be used against pension as you said - solid advice. 

is the general hatred for BTL due to low return on investment? Tenant headaches etc..? I feel like I need bricks and mortar, maybe it’s psychological.

Too much risk concentrated in a single large asset. Plus target rates of return getting derailed by 1001 different factors to the point where you'd make more in a savings account. And the amount of regulation now involved for landlords, including more in the pipeline.

It's something that really only works at scale now with a larger managed property portfolio, unless you happen to stumble on a bargain property, and get a perfect tenant. Bit like trying to find that Kew Gardens Pagoda 50p though isn't it...? Oh but property only ever goes up in value, right? 

I'm not an expert on the tax side, but there are many threads on here that set out how HMRC can hold a tenant liable for the tax that a expat LL should be paying them on their rental income. Presumably on the basis that it's easier for HMRC to track down the tenant! Fair to say that it would be more than a bit of a turn off to a prospective tenant (not that many probably realise what they are letting themselves in for...)

solidpro

As usual, you're looking in terms of years and hundreds of thousands and people are warning you/bogging down the disussion about the high cost of the occasional phone call. Sigh. Yes, different middle-eastern countries have different restrictions on VoIP but anyone who vaguely knows what they're doing knows how to get around it legally or otherwise. Also, web chat exists for most financial institutions. Also, every corner shop sells sim cards with bundles of minutes to the UK. Managing the cost of a phone call really isn't a savings & investment topic, but something you do. Like the washing up.

Distant BTL via a management company is not a 'massive pain'. We manage BTLs ourselves within a limited company/SPV and if you buy the right place, it's relatively easy. For 99.999999% of the year we don't even think about it. Especially if you have a few local contacts for handyman, plumber, electrician, boiler engineer. If you use a management company and pay them a massive chunk then..... that's the whole point - they deal with it. If either becomes 'pain' for £150k BTL investment then you're not doing it right. We are not an institution. We're a man and a woman with no formal education in a modest house.

We bought a modern property, but not new. All the snagging is in the distant past. It's in a very respectable community where everybody watches out for everyone and chips in. The boiler was replaced and the share of freehold ensures mutual responsibility of some infrastructure. We have friends nearby willing to help. We keep the rent low and ensure tenants are highly scrutinised. When people move in, they tend to stay and treat it as their home. It's gated, simple, and was relatively cheap (for a london commute). It's not rocket science, but it takes effort.

I look at BTL as part of a varied portfolio. It provides a steady income now to either suppliment our income or pay off a debt without affecting our income (such as a mortgage). Everything gained through appreciation on the bricks is a bonus. This one I'm speaking of was £300k in 2017 and it's now £400k. But hey, property 'always goes up' - being questioned, whilst we've all navigated through 8 years of economically burning our clothes and staring at our belly buttons. Probably better than a slap in the face with a fish. BTL is almost the exact opposite to 'time in the game' compounding decades of dripping £20k p/a into an ISA or whatever you can into a SIPP. So if you feel capable, do both.

Most importantly for your question, both are perfectly possible for your new circumstances.

You made exactly the right point about CGT. This has been muttered a lot within the new government, whereas CT has not. Maybe CT will change, but it's still comparitively high to both other countries we're competing with - especially after a bunch of useful idiots convinced a tiny majority to enact a massive painful act upon all of us, and the country having to actually compete on it's own merits over historical wins - and it's higher than it was for the last 15 years and imho found a good space with a lower rate for smaller companies - so probably won't be changed in the short term. In fact 'going for growth' (or whatever it was) as a pre-election strapline suggests any changes might be more attractive to business/investors, rather than going against them. If you're going to have a BTL mortgage even more reason to use Ltd Co/SPV as the interest expenses and repairs or management fees offset any annual CT. You sound like you already know this - so many do not have the ability to work out a paper bag, let alone the best strategies for BTL.

By your own suggestions, you've made the same kind of choices I would make. I don't know enough about not being a resident to comment on some of them. I think 95% of the comments here will tell you that you're a fool and tell you everything you shouldn't do without wanting to actually make any suggestions so don't let them get you down.

Lets now all sit back and watch people OT segue into a mistaken acronym, different opinion or the right to use a slap of a fish as a metaphor.

Hoenir

haychq said:

ToastLady said:

And yep, top tip on the sharia compliant savings, maybe I put emergency fund + part of the GIA portfolio there?

Thanks

Al Rayan allow you to bank with them if you live in UK or non-EU country, not all banks allow this, you'd have to check. UK banks insist on you having a UK address as far as I am aware. 
You may need to keep a UK mobile number for banking. Not sure if Al Rayan lets you use a foreign mobile number or not, you'd have to check.
When I lived abroad full time, before UK left EU, so didn't have my bank accounts closed, I kept a pay as you go UK mobile number, and just topped up every 90 days or sent a text to keep the number alive, which was vital for banking with an app. 

I’ve moved all my banks to the family home address and intend on keeping my number on an eSim to receive texts and calls. Also just going to close accounts I don’t actively use. Good shout about just making the phone PAYG - thank you

Hopefully your bankers won't ascertain that you are in fact a non resident.