Employee Off Sick but can’t/won’t produce Sick note - Strange circumstances

FrankFalcon

This is a long story and I have included some supplementary information that may/may not be relevant. The only reason I have added this extra information is to give some context to the case (and the elusively of the person involved) . Please note, with the greatest of respect, I am not looking for people’s opinions or thoughts, or ‘What I would do,. I am looking for ‘links’ and proper guidance to the lawful processes that must be followed here. 

So, here goes…my extended family own a small manufacturing business. They are so small that they don’t have an HR Dept or employment advisor as such. In the 10+ years they have been running their business they have never encountered such a case as I will explain below. Naturally, something needs to be sorted and they are looking for the correct advice or the correct lawful entities to contact to resolve this strange issue. Hopefully, the correct body who can help (both the employee & the employer) and who we (the employer) should turn to for assistance. 

So, the company has employed an employee named Joe Bloggs for 10 years. As far as the company knew, Joe Bloggs lived within 1 Mile of the companies premises. Joe Bloggs was a model employee for 10 years and always showed up for work and never caused any problems. The only thing that seemed a little ‘odd’ was that Joe Bloggs salary was always paid into his cousins bank account. Either way, it wasn’t seen as a big problem. Joe Bloggs did the work and the company paid his salary to the bank account he requested. 

However, last year Joe Bloggs mother (whom he lived with, within 1 mile of the company), suddenly died. For the next few weeks Joe Bloggs acted quite erratic. The company put this down to the loss of his mother and stood by him  

However, 2 months later the real reason became apparent. Joe Bloggs mother’s (now deceased) house was owned by the council and she was the only person registered as living at the house. Joe Bloggs was not registered as living in his mother’s council house! The council now wanted the house back. Joe Bloggs couldn’t say he lived at his Mum’s house because he had never paid any Council Tax etc or other necessary things. It then became clear that Joe Bloggs wasn’t registered as living anywhere, hence his salary being paid into his cousins bank account.  Naturally, the Council snatched the house back (because the only registered tenant had died) and Joe Bloggs became technically homeless. For reasons known only to him he found help with an ‘old friend’ who lives 60 miles away from the company by train. Joe Bloggs asked the company if it would pay his train fare every week (from his old friends house 60 miles away to the factory) and the company agreed… at £120 pounds per week. Basically, the company gave Joe Bloggs £120 cash every Friday and he bought next weeks weekly train ticket with it and gave the company the receipt. To say the arrangement was a bit quirky is a slight understatement but the company bent over backwards, allowing Joe Bloggs to arrive late every day and even paid him through train strikes, train delays etc. Joe Bloggs was a good worker so the company sort of buried its head in the sand hoping things would get better for Joe Bloggs… But they didn’t! 

Then, one day, 6 weeks ago, Joe Bloggs asked the company if it would make him redundant (because the travelling was “getting him down”). The company told him ‘No. we need you to work. Also, we can’t just make you redundant like that when we don’t have a redundancy to make. We want you to stay and work for us’. Joe Bloggs said he enjoyed working for the company but “Getting up at 6am to come to work and getting home at 7:30pm every night is killing me”. The company held firm and denied his request for redundancy. Joe Bloggs then carried on work as normal for the next 2 weeks, travelling the 60 miles per day by train. Then, out of the blue, 4 weeks ago, on a Monday morning, Joe Bloggs turned up for work and said he had been suffering from foot pain all weekend and (even though he had clocked in for work) he needed to go home and rest his foot. The company accepted this and even dropped Joe Bloggs at the Train Station. The company (maybe foolishly) simply assumed Joe Bloggs would provide a sick note after visiting a doctor and started to pay him SSP. So, after 2 weeks SSP payments the company contacted Joe Bloggs to say it hadn’t received a sick note. Joe Bloggs replied by WhatsApp to the company boss ‘Yeah. I’ll get one sorted when I can’. Not wanting to put any more pressure on Joe Bloggs the company let it ride. So, today… 4 weeks SSP down the line, the company has received no documentation or sick note to confirm the illness. Basically, Joe Bloggs has had 4 weeks SSP up to now. So, the company contacted Joe Bloggs today (by Whattsapp-because they have no address where he’s living) and asked him to provide a sick note. Joe Bloggs replied ‘I didn’t know I needed a sick note. Nobody told me I needed one. I will get one sorted when I can’

So, as it stands the company does not know what to do next. If there was a sick note then the company could formally process it as normal. The company does not know if this sick note will ever arrive. The company does not even know if the illness is genuine. After looking at the whole scenario surrounding Joe Bloggs, the company suspects that Joe Bloggs probably isn’t even listed with a doctor. 

For all the company know, they don’t even know if Joe Bloggs is who he says he is, given his previous situation where he wasn’t listed as living at his now deceased mother’s house. 

For all the company know Joe Bloggs may have another Job 60 miles away. 

This is a situation the company has never encountered before. 

How long does the company keep paying SSP to an employee who hasn’t/can’t/is unable to produce a sick note? 

Is the company breaking any laws by paying somebody SSP without any proof of sickness? 

As I said, I would be grateful for the correct advice on which organisations to contact to resolve this matter amicably. 

Whilst, I understand that my ‘thoughts’ count for nothing in Law I actually suspect that his ‘Old Friend’ has put some pressure on Joe Bloggs now to either move on or pay some rent. It is also my opinion that Joe Bloggs simply doesn’t want to work at the factory any longer, especially with the difficult travelling every day.  

Finally, I should note that the employee is paid through the companies PAYE system so clearly does exist in some form. He does have an NI number and is deducted accordingly. 

Thanks for reading until the end all. I appreciate it may be a bit long winded but my old boss always told me ‘better to give too much information than not enough… and receive insufficient / bad advice’

Torry_Quine

SSP can be withheld if there have been repeated requests for a fit-note and no reason for not providing one.

Savvy_Sue

Torry_Quine said:

SSP can be withheld if there have been repeated requests for a fit-note and no reason for not providing one.

and this is the starting point for that:
https://www.gov.uk/employers-sick-pay/eligibility-and-form-ssp1

links to here:
https://www.gov.uk/employers-sick-pay/notice-and-fit-notes

Personally, I think the employer needs to consult an employment solicitor and dismiss Joe. They could just dismiss him using advice from the internet, but it might all go horribly wrong. There are already several interesting breaches of 'best practice' - could you, for example, prove that Joe had the right to work in the UK? Was that £60 weekly train fare subject to tax? 

I don't know if this helps, but you can a) use WhatsApp on a laptop / PC and b) attach documents to it. If an employer stops paying SSP there's a form (SSP1) you use to tell the employee why you've done that. I don't know what you do if you don't have a current address (because the form asks for that), but again, that's why you need the proper legal advice. 

Alderbank

It's a small company but they should have a written policy about sick pay. All employees should know the policy. The policy must apply equally to all employees. In a small company all the employees will be aware that Joe Bloggs is off work. There must not be one policy for Joe Bloggs and another for other employees who might fancy a spell of time off on company pay.

SSP can be paid for up to 28 weeks. They can pay it without needing a fit note if they wish, providing their policy says that and the policy applies to all employees. 

The company is aware that they have a duty of care towards their employees. The welfare policy of a good employer will say that they make regular contact with employees on long term absence. The proper action at this point is for the company to arrange an informal meeting with Joe. This should be at his convenience. A meeting at his home would probably be the easiest for him but it could be at the workplace or a neutral location if he requests that. The purpose is to find out what his problem is and what can be done to resolve it. Emphasise that the company cares about him and is missing him and they need him back to do his job. They do need to make sure he is aware of company policy and that they do need to apply it fairly and equally across all employees. If he has gone several weeks in breach of the company sickness policy it is unauthorised absence and he should understand that his job could be at risk.

Perhaps the company could help him to find accommodation near the workplace? Perhaps provide a reference and even pay a deposit? If he has always lived at home with mum, support like that might be a relief for him. 

justwhat

You asked for links 
I Though all companies had to check "right to work"

https://www.gov.uk/check-job-applicant-right-to-work

Request a formal meeting and request a sick note when if you does not turn up sack him. Its unauthorized absence.
 
Termination of  SSP template https://www.gov.uk/guidance/statutory-sick-pay-employee-fitness-to-work

Grumpy_chap

FrankFalcon said:

So, here goes…my extended family own a small manufacturing business. They are so small that they don’t have an HR Dept or employment advisor as such. 

It would be worth the company engaging a local freelance HR advisor on a retainer-type basis that can provide support when ad-hoc matters arise.

This issue with Joe Bloggs is obviously complex.  The individual has obviously suffered some personal issues and the company appears to have been supportive.  We only have one side of the situation.

The individual appears to be seeking a route out with a payoff of some kind - hence the mention of redundancy.  

The company can rely on internet comments and random links that might be located, but this may well end up being a false economy against obtaining proper HR / legal advice.  If this ends up needing a disciplinary / dismissal process, failure to follow proper procedure could be very expensive for the company.

elsien

Alderbank said:

It's a small company but they should have a written policy about sick pay. All employees should know the policy. The policy must apply equally to all employees. In a small company all the employees will be aware that Joe Bloggs is off work. There must not be one policy for Joe Bloggs and another for other employees who might fancy a spell of time off on company pay.

SSP can be paid for up to 28 weeks. They can pay it without needing a fit note if they wish, providing their policy says that and the policy applies to all employees. 

The company is aware that they have a duty of care towards their employees. The welfare policy of a good employer will say that they make regular contact with employees on long term absence. The proper action at this point is for the company to arrange an informal meeting with Joe. This should be at his convenience. A meeting at his home would probably be the easiest for him but it could be at the workplace or a neutral location if he requests that. The purpose is to find out what his problem is and what can be done to resolve it. Emphasise that the company cares about him and is missing him and they need him back to do his job. They do need to make sure he is aware of company policy and that they do need to apply it fairly and equally across all employees. If he has gone several weeks in breach of the company sickness policy it is unauthorised absence and he should understand that his job could be at risk.

Perhaps the company could help him to find accommodation near the workplace? Perhaps provide a reference and even pay a deposit? If he has always lived at home with mum, support like that might be a relief for him. 

Seriously? After paying train fair for lord  knows how long to go back and fore? 

In the absence of any sick note  indicating mental health issues Joe needs to put on his big boy pants and decide where he wants to live and how that might impact on any future place of employment 
He’s a grown man. Yes, his life has been turned upside down, but it’s not the employers responsibility to try and right it again for him when an element is taking proverbial appears to have crept in. 

I would also ask about the company sick pay policy and ensure that he has a copy. 

And make sure you keep copies at all the WhatsApp or any other communication that you have with him.

Flugelhorn

The company have been great to Joe but I agree with getting some proper paid for advice on this occasion  - am sure Joe is legit but there are some odd red flags flying around, paying into someone else's account, paying train travel, not getting a fit note, is he working somewhere else etc. 

Marcon

FrankFalcon said:

This is a long story and I have included some supplementary information that may/may not be relevant. The only reason I have added this extra information is to give some context to the case (and the elusively of the person involved) . Please note, with the greatest of respect, I am not looking for people’s opinions or thoughts, or ‘What I would do,. I am looking for ‘links’ and proper guidance to the lawful processes that must be followed here. 

I stopped reading after the first paragraph. If you want 'proper guidance to the lawful processes...' then an employment lawyer is your next step, not least because they will be insured to give advice. Nobody here is.

flossymcfly

Another thing to consider whilst all this is going on...who's address is on the payroll system? The registered address with HMRC can flow through to other government systems which could have a knock on effect if the council was ever to investigate for housing/council tax benefit fraud

LightFlare

I think the company is being taken for a mug

They need professional guidance to resolve which as already mentioned will be cheaper in the long run.