Martin's suggestion for winter fuel allowance

Scot_39

Lots of state second pension ?

The standard figures for the basic pensions - old and new - are all readily available on gov uk.

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension/how-much-you-get

Links to the new state pension and the additional state pension on the right hand side.

Those who remained on the basic state pension - now c71 to 74 (those who retired before 2016/7 tax year - kept their basic state pension and their full NI based record additional (in past names like serps / s2p(state second pension?) were used) benefits etc.

Maybe you should see a split in your pension statements (from DWP) if get them still.

My mum got them annually - but hers were a complex mix of widows, own basic and her own additional state pension - so maybe not everyone did or does ?

Those who were transitioned - old to new - had a one off conversion calulation. Where their NI record, period contracted out etc balanced against the enhanced flat pension rate.

Some with long contribution records and large past NI additional entitlement -  iirc - still get more - others contracted out - normally less - than the equivalent years credit. 

People are normally therefore advised to get a quote as part of retirement planning - if been transitioned and not yet of age - so as know actual current amount relative to the max.  

The simplistic 35 years for full - AFAIK - only strictly applies iirc to those starting work - contributions or credits?? - after 2016.

Spoonie_Turtle

Just as another piece of information to throw in the mix, Pension Credit applications were already taking months to a year to be processed.  The official line last I heard was 6 weeks, with people being told 12 weeks by the department, but reality is demonstrating 3-4months is the minimum for very many people.

That was the case already, before this was all announced.  The department is already overwhelmed with applications.

Qyburn

So eight pages in and nobody yet thinks "Martin's" idea makes any sort of sense.

Scot_39

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Just as another piece of information to throw in the mix, Pension Credit applications were already taking months to a year to be processed.  The official line last I heard was 6 weeks, with people being told 12 weeks by the department, but reality is demonstrating 3-4months is the minimum for very many people.

That was the case already, before this was all announced.  The department is already overwhelmed with applications.

Pretty much as feared.

And yet another great reason this change should be delayed to next year and potentially properly designed - tapered out not a hard cut off.

Reeves et al appear to have no idea of how things work in civil service in reality.

I honestly believe thinking about the numbers again- her savings etimates are perhaps just the actual DWPs WFP payments forecast cut in isolation.

 (Depending on age mix - so ave of cost 200 vs 300 at 80+ - if about 70% in the 10m losing were in couples = £1.4bn)

Given the DWPs 880,000 oustanding and £3900 ave value (£3.4bn) Figures from 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c785lg1nwlno


And likely millions more on NHS weekly costs when some more end up in hospital or even GP surgeries  Ave flu stay over 5 days in surveys elsewhere, nhs general bed cost 1st night cost c£600 in 2020 study etc.

Increasingly struggling to believe there will be any net saving at all.

t0rt0ise

MattMattMattUK said:

Brian3357 said:

wrf12345 said:

He did say it was just an opening suggestion but it would have to be handled by the councils, anyway, and they would not deliver it before this winter and should not be let near govn databases, anyway. The govn does not want to give money to asset rich and income poor pensioners, and it does not want to give money to people with savings in ISA's (which would not be reflected in income in their databases) so it can not direct money to people based on the IR databases, other than where the individual has shown they are able to claim benefits. You have several different IT systems not really talking to each other and no access to the council tax bands, either. You could give it to people with overall incomes under say 16k (ignoring ISA income) but that would mean some people who get a good income from their ISA's would also receive it - the exact opposite to what the govn wants to promote. The Conservative gave various handouts to everyone because they could not narrow it down using existing IT sources (which probably cost five to ten times as much as the private sector without actually working properly).

Personally, as Martin is not an elected mp, he should avoud making such specific controversial suggestions. The previous governments blanket winter allowance was in response to an energy emergency - which is still exerting pressure. 

The previous government was over generous with the Covid handouts and over generous with the energy handouts, that is partially why the County is in such a financial mess.

Brian3357 said:
What concerns me is this attack on pensioners coukd develop. 

There is no attack on pensioners. 

Brian3357 said:
After all pensioners are a soft target and cannot strike-if they could Stammer woukd settle with an above inflation wage agreement... which is costing a fortune and creating the black hole

Whilst I am no fan of unions, the doctors for example might have just had an above inflation pay rise, but their pay is still 35% lower in real terms that it was in 2010. The train drivers, whilst they are overpaid and underworked were costing more in strikes in a fortnight than the pay rises will cost in a year, short term pragmatism until we can replace them with driverless trains.

Not much will be saved by driverless trains. You still have to have someone there. The 'drivers' on the automatic Docklands Light Railway earn a decent amount.

Black_Monk

My mother is 92 years old and has mixed dementia.  She was widowed during COVID so I took her in and gave up my job to be her carer.  The WFA is a great help.

Although there is an argument that the more well-off should pay for their services there is also a counter-argument that means-testing benefits and allowances disincentives people from saving.  I also feel if Labour get away with this then they may target other allowances such as Attendance Allowance.

It is inevitable that this policy combined with the two planned increases in the energy cap this October and next January that there will be more cold related deaths.  I read in yesterday's Sunday Times that the October increase in the energy cap will be £149 - that is almost half of the WFA accounted for already.  I would be morally outraged if the government would allow more vulnerable people to die of the cold this winter in order to save money while at the same time giving already well remunerated train drivers a double-digit pay rise.

I would ask all Forumites to do what I have done:  Sign the Age UK petition (https://www.ageuk.org.uk/our-impact/campaigning/save-the-winter-fuel-payment/), write to the Chancellor (ministers@hmtreasury.gsi.gov.uk) and your local MP(https://members.parliament.uk/FindYourMP). 

Thank you

BlackMonk 

BarelySentientAI

I would ask all Forumites to form their own opinions based on actual facts and logic, rather than emotional assertions and what-ifs.  "If they get away with this they might target other things" is not justification for an economic decision. There is a place for welfare, however that does not mean that all decisions to cut certain payments are wrong and that blanket distribution of cash is the best policy.

Fortunately, governments do (on occasion) do what is correct and/or necessary rather than simply what is popular.

I would be "morally outraged" if the government decided to keep just giving away cash to anyone and everyone simply for existing, rather than spending it where it is necessary and useful.  Except I wouldn't, because moral outrage is often a method of hiding an illogical but emotional judgement behind a justification that people are scared to argue with.

By all means, address the needs of the vulnerable.  Very few people will disagree with that concept.  "Free cash for all" is not, in my opinion, the method to address those needs.

Also, Black_Monk, it's disingenuous to suggest that it's a "planned" increase in the price cap.  It's an increase based on the actual cost of producing and supplying energy, calculated from historical information.

Qyburn

Black_Monk said:

I read in yesterday's Sunday Times that the October increase in the energy cap will be £149

Making it less than October 2023, and less than 2022 even allowing for the £400 give-away.

Spoonie_Turtle

I thought I'd read Age UK were suggesting broadening eligibility to include those claiming Housing Benefit, AA/PIP/DLA, and Carers Allowance (which sounded sensible to me - especially HB as that is fully means-tested for people not claiming Pension Credit).  But the petition doesn't say any of that, only to stop the change completely.

Brian3357

An interesting and thought provoking set of responses to my initial post. I agree with many observations. But to stress, we are still in the grip of an energy emergency and short term to be reviewed next year, maintenance of the WFA would help support pensioners through a hard winter. 

What worries me, is that Labour are insensitive to the old and may well turn the screws on them as a soft targets. Ivd contributed 40 years in taxes and national insurance, so recent being targeted. The rich should bare the brunt.