Creep Test and Accuracy Test results

Joe_Tanner

BarelySentientAI said:

Reed_Richards said:

If your meter is going up 0.4 kWh in 30 minutes that's 0.8 units per hour or 19.2 units per day.  That would add maybe £4 per day to your bill!

It seems to me that if your meter was creeping up when no electricity was being drawn then it becomes much more difficult to assess if it was also running fact.  And if it failed the creep test then Octopus need to allow for that in their calculations.

If I were you I would try to measure the rate of creep more accurately, perhaps over a longer time period.  Take photos to show what you have done.  Then insist that Octopus adjust their bills for creep as well as running fast.  Alternatively, if nothing in your house has changed, insist that Octopus base their bills on the new readings from your smart meter assuming that last year's readings, had they been recorded accurately, would have been the same.       

That's not how it works.  And nor should it be.

One meter that I tested in the past had a creep test result of 300W, but it turned out that it was acting as a minimum reading, so at no load it recorded 300W, at 100W load it recorded 300W, at 200W load it recorded 300W, and from 300W and upwards it was accurate.

Given that most properties would be using at least some electricity all of the time, applying creep as well as accuracy test results would have been a massive overestimate of the error in that case.

Thanks for the comments. I’ve ordered an electric usage monitor plug to check my appliances to see if any is using more energy than it should. Do you think it’s worth it to make a test where I turn off all the switches on the fuse box except the plugs, unplug all the appliances, etc and then run my fan heater on the usage monitor plug until it measures 1kw and then compare it to how much the main meter measures? If it’s just running 5.49% fast it should only have measured one unit, right? The minimum measure is 0.1 units and 5.49% of 1000w  is 54.9w which is less than 100w so that extra should not appear on the display. Or am I thinking about it the wrong way?

Joe_Tanner

Chris_b2z said:

What is the make and model? Also, does it have a label showing year of manufacture?

It looks like it was manufactured in 2008, which is a bit odd because there's a sticker saying it was checked in 2006:

BarelySentientAI

Joe_Tanner said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Reed_Richards said:

If your meter is going up 0.4 kWh in 30 minutes that's 0.8 units per hour or 19.2 units per day.  That would add maybe £4 per day to your bill!

It seems to me that if your meter was creeping up when no electricity was being drawn then it becomes much more difficult to assess if it was also running fact.  And if it failed the creep test then Octopus need to allow for that in their calculations.

If I were you I would try to measure the rate of creep more accurately, perhaps over a longer time period.  Take photos to show what you have done.  Then insist that Octopus adjust their bills for creep as well as running fast.  Alternatively, if nothing in your house has changed, insist that Octopus base their bills on the new readings from your smart meter assuming that last year's readings, had they been recorded accurately, would have been the same.       

That's not how it works.  And nor should it be.

One meter that I tested in the past had a creep test result of 300W, but it turned out that it was acting as a minimum reading, so at no load it recorded 300W, at 100W load it recorded 300W, at 200W load it recorded 300W, and from 300W and upwards it was accurate.

Given that most properties would be using at least some electricity all of the time, applying creep as well as accuracy test results would have been a massive overestimate of the error in that case.

Thanks for the comments. I’ve ordered an electric usage monitor plug to check my appliances to see if any is using more energy than it should. Do you think it’s worth it to make a test where I turn off all the switches on the fuse box except the plugs, unplug all the appliances, etc and then run my fan heater on the usage monitor plug until it measures 1kw and then compare it to how much the main meter measures? If it’s just running 5.49% fast it should only have measured one unit, right? The minimum measure is 0.1 units and 5.49% of 1000w  is 54.9w which is less than 100w so that extra should not appear on the display. Or am I thinking about it the wrong way?

I don't think that would help you much.  Plus, you have no idea if the .5 on your meter is .50 or .59, so the test wouldn't work as you think it would.

tim_p

Is this an all electric property? (Didn’t see gas mentioned) 

mmmmikey

Whatever method you devise for checking the various issues with the meter, you'll be doing that at a point of time and there's no way of knowing with any certainty whether this is a fault that developed suddenly and has been consistently happening ever since or has got progressively worse. Certainly an interesting exercise and will inform your understanding but it's not going to prove anything and may not help you.

Given you know what your usage was over the last few years, have you used that to estimate what you would have used for the period in dispute? If you can do that and present it to Octopus in a way that seems reasonable then I would anticipate they would be receptive to using your figures and amending your bill accordingly. Even if they don't you'll have something you can go to the Ombudsman with. The key to success is being seen to be painfully reasonable. Much easier than trying to diagnose the problem with the meter yourself. 

The trap you could fall into is going round in circles debating the precise fault with the meter rather than focussing on what a fair estimate of usage is during the period the meter has been faulty.

Joe_Tanner

BarelySentientAI said:

Joe_Tanner said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Reed_Richards said:

If your meter is going up 0.4 kWh in 30 minutes that's 0.8 units per hour or 19.2 units per day.  That would add maybe £4 per day to your bill!

It seems to me that if your meter was creeping up when no electricity was being drawn then it becomes much more difficult to assess if it was also running fact.  And if it failed the creep test then Octopus need to allow for that in their calculations.

If I were you I would try to measure the rate of creep more accurately, perhaps over a longer time period.  Take photos to show what you have done.  Then insist that Octopus adjust their bills for creep as well as running fast.  Alternatively, if nothing in your house has changed, insist that Octopus base their bills on the new readings from your smart meter assuming that last year's readings, had they been recorded accurately, would have been the same.       

That's not how it works.  And nor should it be.

One meter that I tested in the past had a creep test result of 300W, but it turned out that it was acting as a minimum reading, so at no load it recorded 300W, at 100W load it recorded 300W, at 200W load it recorded 300W, and from 300W and upwards it was accurate.

Given that most properties would be using at least some electricity all of the time, applying creep as well as accuracy test results would have been a massive overestimate of the error in that case.

Thanks for the comments. I’ve ordered an electric usage monitor plug to check my appliances to see if any is using more energy than it should. Do you think it’s worth it to make a test where I turn off all the switches on the fuse box except the plugs, unplug all the appliances, etc and then run my fan heater on the usage monitor plug until it measures 1kw and then compare it to how much the main meter measures? If it’s just running 5.49% fast it should only have measured one unit, right? The minimum measure is 0.1 units and 5.49% of 1000w  is 54.9w which is less than 100w so that extra should not appear on the display. Or am I thinking about it the wrong way?

I don't think that would help you much.  Plus, you have no idea if the .5 on your meter is .50 or .59, so the test wouldn't work as you think it would.

I know what you mean but the idea was more to see if there was a big discrepancy between the two readings. Let's say for example, the plug meter measured 1kw and the mains meter measured 1.5kW, that would be without a doubt way more than the 5.49% inaccuracy they claimed they measured and maybe I could use that to try to ask them to send the meter to be independently tested when replacing it for a smart meter. I wasn't trying to get a precise measurement, precisely for the reasons you mentioned

Chris_b2z

The Ampy 5235A (also rebranded Landis Gyr) has a track record for this exact problem. A number of similar cases have been discussed in MSE forums and a google search will reveal many more including this one.

Some of the reported symptoms include sudden jumps in usage at intermittent times which may not have occurred during the period of the onsite test. I suggest getting the meter replaced but also requesting an independent test as described here. The Ombudsman may be able to assist if Octopus are reluctant.

Joe_Tanner

mmmmikey said:

Whatever method you devise for checking the various issues with the meter, you'll be doing that at a point of time and there's no way of knowing with any certainty whether this is a fault that developed suddenly and has been consistently happening ever since or has got progressively worse. Certainly an interesting exercise and will inform your understanding but it's not going to prove anything and may not help you.

Given you know what your usage was over the last few years, have you used that to estimate what you would have used for the period in dispute? If you can do that and present it to Octopus in a way that seems reasonable then I would anticipate they would be receptive to using your figures and amending your bill accordingly. Even if they don't you'll have something you can go to the Ombudsman with. The key to success is being seen to be painfully reasonable. Much easier than trying to diagnose the problem with the meter yourself. 

The trap you could fall into is going round in circles debating the precise fault with the meter rather than focussing on what a fair estimate of usage is during the period the meter has been faulty.

By looking at our readings I know that the problem started between August and September last year, when it jumped from 285 to 428 units. And in October it increased again to 445, with us being two weeks away and therefore using way less energy. Just this year so far we've already used almost as much energy as we've used in a whole year in 2021 and 2022. We've tried that reasoning with them and they're saying they'll use the 5.49% inaccuracy to calculate the rebilling. I'll be checking all our appliances this week with an energy monitor plug and if it all seems right we might have to make another complaint, just trying to cover all possibilities and understand how things work beforehand with all the advice I'm getting, which so far has been vey helpful.

Joe_Tanner

tim_p said:

Is this an all electric property? (Didn’t see gas mentioned) 

It's electric and gas for central heating and hot water.

BarelySentientAI

Joe_Tanner said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Joe_Tanner said:

BarelySentientAI said:

Reed_Richards said:

If your meter is going up 0.4 kWh in 30 minutes that's 0.8 units per hour or 19.2 units per day.  That would add maybe £4 per day to your bill!

It seems to me that if your meter was creeping up when no electricity was being drawn then it becomes much more difficult to assess if it was also running fact.  And if it failed the creep test then Octopus need to allow for that in their calculations.

If I were you I would try to measure the rate of creep more accurately, perhaps over a longer time period.  Take photos to show what you have done.  Then insist that Octopus adjust their bills for creep as well as running fast.  Alternatively, if nothing in your house has changed, insist that Octopus base their bills on the new readings from your smart meter assuming that last year's readings, had they been recorded accurately, would have been the same.       

That's not how it works.  And nor should it be.

One meter that I tested in the past had a creep test result of 300W, but it turned out that it was acting as a minimum reading, so at no load it recorded 300W, at 100W load it recorded 300W, at 200W load it recorded 300W, and from 300W and upwards it was accurate.

Given that most properties would be using at least some electricity all of the time, applying creep as well as accuracy test results would have been a massive overestimate of the error in that case.

Thanks for the comments. I’ve ordered an electric usage monitor plug to check my appliances to see if any is using more energy than it should. Do you think it’s worth it to make a test where I turn off all the switches on the fuse box except the plugs, unplug all the appliances, etc and then run my fan heater on the usage monitor plug until it measures 1kw and then compare it to how much the main meter measures? If it’s just running 5.49% fast it should only have measured one unit, right? The minimum measure is 0.1 units and 5.49% of 1000w  is 54.9w which is less than 100w so that extra should not appear on the display. Or am I thinking about it the wrong way?

I don't think that would help you much.  Plus, you have no idea if the .5 on your meter is .50 or .59, so the test wouldn't work as you think it would.

I know what you mean but the idea was more to see if there was a big discrepancy between the two readings. Let's say for example, the plug meter measured 1kw and the mains meter measured 1.5kW, that would be without a doubt way more than the 5.49% inaccuracy they claimed they measured and maybe I could use that to try to ask them to send the meter to be independently tested when replacing it for a smart meter. I wasn't trying to get a precise measurement, precisely for the reasons you mentioned

You don't have to "try to ask them".  You have the right to get an independent test as the link that Chris_b2z and I have posted states.