Building Control Sign Off Issues

theFitz35

Hi,

I recently moved to a new house which required full renovations. I have done a few houses up so was happy to do the bulk of it myself but use experts where appropriate and where I require certificates. 

I wanted to remove part of the back wall of the house to put new glass sliding doors in, the wall between my lounge and kitchen and a chimney breast in the kitchen. I brought in a recommended structural engineer who has done these types of jobs for over 10 years. The plans were drawn up and submitted, and we went with the council building control as they we believed would be quicker. There was no dispute from the submitted plans.

We then brought in a recommended builder who installed the steel beams and gallow brackets exactly as shown in the drawings. We then waited with our house fully open to horrific weather for building control to come out and inspect. they eventually told us they were unable to come out so just to send in pictures. After a few months, and sending in pictures, and nothing from building control, we cracked on with the rest of the house as it was freezing and we had no kitchen, lounge or hallway and were living there and working full time. It was only right to crack on with the work as there had been no issues flagged. 

Finally an inspector came out but that was once the steel had been plasterboarded in fire proof board. They inspected the this, the photos and the gallow brackets as well as the adjoining (semi detached) brick wall as that was still open. We got the ok and was told to send pictures in once finished.

Suddenly 4 months later, the checking engineer at the council flags problems with the calculations. Our structural engineer had worked with the council for many years but this was a new person there. There was suddenly an issue. After several back and forths, most of the issues were sorted. However, we now have 2 outstanding ones. 

1 - the calculations of the gallow brackets and needing to check the brick wall
2 - The bend and torque of one of the steel beams was excessive and did not pass the checks

Our structural engineer has said he cant do anymore as he has provided everything they require and they are just being difficult for no reason when its a very simple internal project. The checking engineer is not moving on their requests. We are now left having paid out this money, had all the work completed exactly as the plans specified but are the ones suffering as this is not our fault but is being left for us to somehow deal with and I am not a structural engineer. We cant finish the house as im worried we have to smash it to bits again and my partner is stressing out so much its causing major issues. 

I dont understand the inspection of the brick wall as that was already done but not by that specific checking engineer. I also dont understand why now there is a problem with the steel beam calculations. We have spoken to other structural engineers who agreed with our plans and the calculations so either the checking engineer at the council is wrong or being difficult or 3 structural engineers, all with vast experience are wrong. 

Sorry for such a long message but I wanted to find out if anyone knew what to do in this situation please? 

stuart45

Was the work done on full plans approval, or a Building Notice? Full plans approval takes much longer before the work can start, as all the details need to be carefully checked, because once they're approved and stamped you build to them?

silvercar

You instructed the structural engineer to draw up plans that met building control. Assuming your builders followed that plan, then the structural engineer either needs to negotiate with the council building control or pay for the costs of redo-ing. Alternatively, you / the structural engineer could call in a private building control firm to sign off. Depends how confident the SI is that his plans meet regulations.

theFitz35

Hi, sorry for the delayed reply. 

The plans were submitted only a few days prior to the work starting, which I was told was fine as it was simple internal work. We had to go down the Building Control channel as bringing in a private building control firm would take a few days for it to be assigned over. We cant bring in a private building control firm now as it is already being looked at by the council so they are unable to take it on now, as ive been told anyway.

So in one way, I wish we had just waited for full approval but even still, it took the council 3 months to flag anything, which would have meant not having a back of the house for that long during winter, something myself and my partner was not ok with. 

The builder carried out the work to the specification so he is not to blame, he has also done loads of these and knew the sizes of steel required before he even saw the drawings, and they were the same so that gave us confidence. 

At the moment the structural engineer is giving up as he is frustrated by the council, and wants to submit a formal complaint, having brought in 3 other structural engineers who agreed with him. However, that doesnt sound like a plan B to me, thats just desperation and I cant see them accepting it on the basis of a formal complaint. I am going to write to them today and see if I can change their minds but again, thats more from a desperation perspective. 

Any thoughts on what to do next or who is to blame here? Thanks so much 

ComicGeek

I would ring (not email) someone higher up at Building Control, and ask them to review. There can be real jobsworths in building control (both council and private) who ask for more than required under bldg regs based on personal opinions, poor training etc - but equally a lot of designers don't always get it 100% right so the same jobsworths can also pick up real problems. Calmly speak with them and explain that your engineer and their checking engineer can't agree, and ask for clarification. Most BCOs are really helpful when approached calmly. 

Ultimately you need clarification from Building Control on why the current design is incorrect. Then you get details of your structural engineer's professional indemnity insurance and start a claim if it's their fault.

theFitz35

Thank you so much for this, thats really helpful and I will try this and hopefully get to some sort of an agreement. 

Section62

theFitz35 said:

The plans were submitted only a few days prior to the work starting, which I was told was fine as it was simple internal work....
....
At the moment the structural engineer is giving up as he is frustrated by the council, and wants to submit a formal complaint, having brought in 3 other structural engineers who agreed with him. However, that doesnt sound like a plan B to me, thats just desperation and I cant see them accepting it on the basis of a formal complaint. I am going to write to them today and see if I can change their minds but again, thats more from a desperation perspective. 

Any thoughts on what to do next or who is to blame here? Thanks so much 

Whenever I see the words "simple internal work" I get concerned, because it often isn't.  The project appears to involve three different structural alterations: 1) "remove part of the back wall of the house" 2) a knock-through 3 ) chimney breast removal.

Item 1 doesn't really correspond with "simple internal work".  The combination of all three changes could throw up an issue that any one (or two) on their own wouldn't cause.

The idea of a checking engineer (and building control generally) is to have a fresh set of eyes looking at critical aspects of a project to make sure nothing has been overlooked.

Have the three other SE's your one has asked actually been paid to look at the project properly, or has your SE just had a conversation with them about their frustration and the other three said something along the lines of "we agree"?  The thing with structural engineering checks is not just agreeing the calculations, and the ultimate design, but also going back to square one and making sure that assumptions and the design approach is correct.

The council's SE could be the one who has got it wrong, but not because they are the only one saying there is an issue vs the five who are sure they are right. It is possible they have spotted something the others have missed.  Them being new to the council should also not be taken as a negative - again fresh eyes sometimes see things that others miss (and the council still accepting gallows brackets hints that there may be a wider issue there).

Is the phrase "The bend and torque of one of the steel beams was excessive" exactly as someone has written it?  If so, who was that?  The way it is phrased isn't normal structural engineering terminology. If significant torque forces are involved then this isn't really a simple beam, and therefore the "simple internal work" description might be where the problem lies.