PCN on Residential Parking and now LOC

Cancel_Them

Greetings to the esteemed warriors against the scum of the earth PPCs,

I've gone through the Newbie thread followed some of the steps and I'm now at the Letter of Claim stage. I've drafted a response to the LOC but wanted to get a second eye to take a look at it.

First to provide details:

- I stay in a residential building with about 150 flats and 39 parking slots, so there isn't close to enough slots for everyone. The slots are allocated to some apartments (mine doesn't have one) and the cost is factored in the monthly rent of those tenants. I got a car after a year of residing here and got a friend's consent to use her parking space because she wasn't using it. After the first few months, I also began to pay her an amount monthly as I was the one benefitting from using the slot so it was only right for me to pick up some cost.

- After about a month of parking I received 3 PCNs to my surprise, so I called the building mgt cy and was told the reg no. of the car needed to be added to the parking system before I could park. So I had this sent over and then proceeded to appeal the 3 as the Registered Keeper of the car and explained that I was using a friend's space and wasn't aware of the need to register. To my shock, all 3 were rejected so I did further research and found this forum, did a bit of reading back then and picked the point of complaining to the landowner but neglected the part that said to continue with the official appeal process. I also did not fully read and understand the whole thread. I soon received 3 more PCNs after first 3 appeals were rejected.

- So I went off to complain to the building mgt and was at it for weeks and they were utterly useless. And while that was going on the appeal window passed and I still had no success with the complaint. They only managed to make it worse by introducing more PCNs into the conversation, the PPC claimed they had 14 PCNs on their records for my car's reg no and can cancel 7 for me to pay the other 7. I kept pressuring the building mgt cy to do better but to no avail, the PPC even added a deadline for me to make the payment at £60. Finally after much frustration, I agreed to pay (my biggest regret) and said I'd pay in 2 instalments, I then sent £220 out of £420, but the PPC came back and said the deadline to pay at 60 had passed and I now had to pay at 100. That was the point I got really livid and felt stupid for paying at all, still berate myself till today.

- To cut long story short, I came back here to look for options and fully read the newbie thread. I realised 4 of the 6 PCNs I received were outside the notice period for POFA and the other 8 they claimed to have on record which I never received would have been non POFA as well. Kicked myself some more. Since then I've received debt recovery letters for the second set of 3 PCNs (non POFA) and ignored them as I should. Now I have received an LOC and some good news is it is from DCBL. I've adopted the response from newbie thread post #2 and added my reason (in bold), borrowing from the words of "troublemaker22" on the airport case. Please help have a look before I send it off:


Dear Sirs,

Your Ref. ############
Proposed Legal Proceedings
Claimant: xxxxxx xxxxxxxx Ltd

I refer to your letter of claim.

I confirm that my address for service for the time being - assuming you don't faff about and delay any claim - is as follows, and any older address must be erased from your records:
[will add address here]

The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

I am sourcing and seeking independent debt advice and as such, I formally request that this matter be put on hold for an additional 30 days, in accordance with the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims 2017 ('the PAP').

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I am not obliged to identify the driver and I decline to do so. As there is no legal presumption that the keeper of a vehicle was its driver on any particular occasion, your client cannot pursue me as driver (see VCS v Edward, 2023). 
As you and your client are well aware, the PCNs do not comply with the "relevant period" of notice as defined in paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, therefore there is no keeper liability. So your client cannot pursue me as keeper. 

As your client cannot pursue me as driver or keeper, it would be an abuse of the court’s process for your client to issue a claim against me and I will defend any such claim vigorously and seek costs in relation to your client’s unreasonable conduct.

I note that the amount being claimed has increased by a hugely exaggerated amount which the Government called "extorting money from motorists".

Don't send me your usual blather about that.
I have two questions, and under the PAP I am entitled to specific answers:

1. Am I to understand that the additional £70 represents what you lot dress up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this nett or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?

2. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?

Yours faithfully


I'm also sending a SAR to the PPC using the format in the dropbox link B789 posted 


Any advice is appreciated, thanks!

Gr1pr

A few thoughts below 

1) name the parking company involved 

2) check the lease of the person who lent or hired you their space, those terms and conditions are useful if they can control their space 

3) the fact that POFA 2012 wasn't complied with may be irrelevant, because they will pursue you as the probable driver of that vehicle bearing your VRM , especially if your address is or was close by

4) in case you didn't realise, POFA 2012 is not mandatory, its optional, plus only applies in England and Wales, the parking company can choose to not invoke POFA, many don't, or fail to comply with it. Pofa doesn't assist a driver, never has. Its mainly invoked to apply keeper liability where a driver is unknown, it may not be useful in residential cases. By all means use it in your response but don't be surprised if they assume that you are the driver 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6301728/driver-not-driver-undue-reliance-on-pofa-in-court-defences

And read the reply by Johnersh in this recent case 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6462139/bwlegal-800-fine#latest

5) the more PCNs there are, the more likely a court claim will arrive 

6) I would suggest that you read as many residential cases as possible, to get an Idea of all that is involved, especially those on the contestor legal blogsite, plus the ones that have gone to appeal etc 

Coupon-mad

You say you "stay" rather than you live.  Do you have a Scottish connection and can change your address for service to Scotland?

Which PPC?

Cancel_Them

Gr1pr said:

A few thoughts below 

1) name the parking company involved 

2) check the lease of the person who lent or hired you their space, those terms and conditions are useful if they can control their space 

3) the fact that POFA 2012 wasn't complied with may be irrelevant, because they will pursue you as the probable driver of that vehicle bearing your VRM , especially if your address is or was close by

4) in case you didn't realise, POFA 2012 is not mandatory, its optional, plus only applies in England and Wales, the parking company can choose to not invoke POFA, many don't, or fail to comply with it. Pofa doesn't assist a driver, never has. Its mainly invoked to apply keeper liability where a driver is unknown, it may not be useful in residential cases. By all means use it in your response but don't be surprised if they assume that you are the driver 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6301728/driver-not-driver-undue-reliance-on-pofa-in-court-defences

And read the reply by Johnersh in this recent case 

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6462139/bwlegal-800-fine#latest

5) the more PCNs there are, the more likely a court claim will arrive 

6) I would suggest that you read as many residential cases as possible, to get an Idea of all that is involved, especially those on the contestor legal blogsite, plus the ones that have gone to appeal etc 

Thanks. The parking company is Secure Parking Solutions.

On point 2, I once asked the person to check their lease to know exactly what the parking space cost and she said the car park wasn't mentioned at all. When asked the letting agent also said it's factored in the rent and there isn't a specific amount, still don't understand why they haven't mentioned it in the agreement.

For the other points about POFA, that's quite disappointing, I had thought that was a good point.

Cancel_Them

Coupon-mad said:

You say you "stay" rather than you live.  Do you have a Scottish connection and can change your address for service to Scotland?

Which PPC?

Hi Coupon-mad
Not at all I don't have a Scottish connection.

The PPC is Secure Parking Solutions.

Coupon-mad

How come there were 14 but you only knew about three? Were eleven of them sent to your old address?  Was your logbook address updated when you moved there?

Cancel_Them

I received 6 but they told the building management company they had 14 on their record. I believe they didn't send the other 8.

I got the car after I moved to this address so this is the only address I've ever registered with DVLA for the vehicle and the same is on the logbook.

Cancel_Them

Gr1pr,
I'll also read those threads you shared.
Thank you 

Coupon-mad

Send the DVLA a question asking how many times and on what dates did a parking firm or debt collector access your data.

You need to flesh out if there really were 14. 

Cancel_Them

Thanks, I'll make the request now. Am I to use the contact.dvla.gov.uk online or is there an email address I'm to send the request to?

Coupon-mad

The ones in the NEWBIES thread!