Junior on full duties

Dakta

Hi all

Work in a large (profiessional-ish) organisation for about 5 years.

Just a quick one, last year as a result of some issues with my manager I jumped from one role to another and changed team. The new job is a pay band higher, and commands a contractual bonus significantly higher (whilst it isn't a management position, people on this team are on the management bonus scheme), however I was kept on my old t+c's and told it was not to cause any problems or give the impression to other people tgar it was a promotion. To compensate, the role was supposed to be junior, and I am referred to by my manager as a junior, though my actual job spec on reflection is the same.

I was told by a someone who worked in HR who was assigned to me during 'the troubled period' that they couldn't do this to me forever because it was not allowed within the org to have people doing the same job, on different terms, and once up to speed I should become a full member of th team . Now, I know everyones salary can be lawfully different but the issue here is not even on the same band, or contractual terms. We're talking 10-20k difference. 

Anyway, after months of training I'm now pretty much doing most things, and I'm covering this week for other full analysts. In fact, there has never been a discussion with regards to limits of my role, i've just sort of joined the team and cracked on with what everyone else does.

With this in mind, and the fact in a few months ill have been here nearly a year, I've had a chat with my manager about formally progressing, he has told me he's happy for me to do what the others do, but he cannot actually put me in a formal role in line with the others as there has to be a formal recquisition and budget discussion etc etc.

I have also since heard the bonus for me as a junior is at risk due to company wide changes, though it does not affect those in a band higher (my colleagues basically). This is a kick in the nuts and my manager is unable to confirm if I will be affected, though from what's been said there's a chance.

I am scared that the company will ultimately see me as accepting the terms of my current pay at full responsibilities - how do I best protect myself in the situation?

Am in a union, but having problems there as it isn't recognised atm (they are supposed to contact me about that in fact)

cheers

DE_612183

It sounds like the team / dept you moved to has a specified agreed budget / headcount and to move you into that higher role with the "other" analysts would mean they break the budget - perhaps they were hoping one of the other analysts would leave and you would slot into that position.

You will probably need to formally apply for a role if it comes up, or when they do the budget review the manager / head needs to ask for more money - however if their are "company wide changes" going on it sounds like there maybe a hold or even a move to reduce staff numbers.

You may want to have a chat with your manager and ask him what the blockers are - ask in terms of the points I've put in above - it may make it better for you to understand why you are stuck where you are.

You could go to the union, but it would all depend on what your contract actually states - a lot of contracts have a catch all "other duties as required", and if you had an issue with a previous manager - having an issue with this one may not bode well.

Have that chat first and see what comes out of it.

LinLui

So, if I am reading this correctly you were formally redeployed due to some workplace issues with your previous manager, but on your existing terms and conditions. Someone in HR spun you a story about this maybe changing at some point in time, but you were given no confirmation that would be the case. You were told it was not a promotion.

That really is all the relevant information. The rest is "stuff you were asked to do and agreed to do". They were not required to limit your role or responsibilities, and they are not required to provide you with the "senior" role, pay and terms. 

I am scared that the company will ultimately see me as accepting the terms of my current pay at full responsibilities - how do I best protect myself in the situation?
You already have accepted it! You cannot force them to increase your pay; and based on what you have said here there are no grounds in law to claim discrimination. I suppose you could, technically ask to drop those responsibilities listed as "senior" but I suspect that the minute you do your post will no longer be required. From what your manager has said to you is sounds like your position is "supernumary" - there was no job for you and it was untenable for you to remain where you were. Either because they are nice employers (I suppose there are a few) or because they suspected that you could become costly to get rid of, they simply fudged the budgets and moved you somewhere less troublesome to them. But you are an "extra pair of hands" not a formal part of the budget, and on that basis your manager has no control over the situation. They can ask for the position to be regularised, but the employer has no incentive to do anything. It's usually called "wait until the penny drops and they leave of their own accord".

And I am not being cruel there. I am "supernumary" too! My previous (new) manager was a (word I am not allowed to use on this site) and tried to force me out, initially through early retirement, and when I wouldn't go, through a "false redundancy". Unfortunately for her, I knew were the "record button" on my phone was located and had her bang to rights for disability discrimination and harassment. But being the "golden child" manager they wouldn't get rid of her and my union made it clear that our first stop would be a tribunal claim. So I was (with my agreement) moved to a (lovely) new manager and told I had a job for as long as I wanted. The joke was that I had intended to retire six months after the so-called redundancy anyway - I actually liked the new job and manager so much that I stayed an exra two years which has cost them an arm and a leg! But I go soon and yes, my manager has been told that he can't replace me because he never had the budget for my post. 

I am afraid that my answer would probably be that you need to take the skills you have gained in the last year and find a better job. 

Dakta

Unfortunately I think you're on the money, the company wouldn't let me go and the simple fact was the previous manager HAD discriminated against me (I do have a disability), in fact it went quite deep and a few managers ended up dissapearing, including one that managed the greivance and initially found 'no merit' to my concerns.


I'm not necessarily desperate to get on the grade, and if it was a case of waiting for a vacancy I could hang on, more the question is would they block it. If it wasd a few k pay difference I'd probaby not worry about it, but the pay difference is tens, and the bonus difference varies but is about triple.

However with the existing bonus being phased out (there is a pay rise thats apparently being put in place to offset it) however because I'm in middle ground (basically I am still in my old job on the HR system) I might get overlooked and nobody, even HR can confirm whether its the case or not. 

What's really laughable is my old job was far more skilled.

MeteredOut

Are there well defined job descriptions for both the role you are on (and getting paid for) and the role you are doing?

If so, and the difference is stark, I'd be getting those noted to your manager, and perhaps HR.

In the extreme, you could work-to-rule for the role you're getting paid to do, though the potential end-game there is dismissal and then a potential claim for wrongful dismissal.

Dakta

Hi

Yes, the company is very formal about positions, this is what put my mind at ease when HR said internal policy prevented the company from letting me do full duties without being in the same band (exact salary will vary on experience but you couldn't NOT be on the same band) - though a job spec for me hasn't been produced, I did receive  an informal one when I moved teams (by informal I mean it was bulletpointed by a director and not a document on the system as is norm). This was really vague and not only was effectively the existing JD as my colleagues have it, but also included elements of my old job as well. I questioned this at the time and they just told me they'd had to throw something together at short notice. 

According to my HR portal where you get payslips etc, I am still in my old role. 

LinLui

Dakta said:

Unfortunately I think you're on the money, the company wouldn't let me go and the simple fact was the previous manager HAD discriminated against me (I do have a disability), in fact it went quite deep and a few managers ended up dissapearing, including one that managed the greivance and initially found 'no merit' to my concerns.


I'm not necessarily desperate to get on the grade, and if it was a case of waiting for a vacancy I could hang on, more the question is would they block it. If it wasd a few k pay difference I'd probaby not worry about it, but the pay difference is tens, and the bonus difference varies but is about triple.

However with the existing bonus being phased out (there is a pay rise thats apparently being put in place to offset it) however because I'm in middle ground (basically I am still in my old job on the HR system) I might get overlooked and nobody, even HR can confirm whether its the case or not. 

What's really laughable is my old job was far more skilled.

Being devils advocate, if a vacancy came up, why would they give it to you? They could either delete the post or appoint someone else - you don't have entitlement to an appointment, and they just have to say you weren't the best candidate on the day. You are doing the job and have done for some time, and you are cheaper. I knew when it happened to me that I would never get promoted  - I had burnt the bridges there. Luckily I didn't want it, and I knew that I was intending to go in six months anyway - which was what they expected me to do. I fought because I am too ornery to not do! If I were in your shoes, I would probably expect that my only chance of progression is another employer. Unless you have more faith in your employer than I usuallu have in them?

MeteredOut

Dakta said:

Hi

Yes, the company is very formal about positions, this is what put my mind at ease when HR said internal policy prevented the company from letting me do full duties without being in the same band (exact salary will vary on experience but you couldn't NOT be on the same band) - though a job spec for me hasn't been produced, I did receive  an informal one when I moved teams (by informal I mean it was bulletpointed by a director and not a document on the system as is norm). This was really vague and not only was effectively the existing JD as my colleagues have it, but also included elements of my old job as well. I questioned this at the time and they just told me they'd had to throw something together at short notice. 

According to my HR portal where you get payslips etc, I am still in my old role. 

If the grade of the new role is the same as the grade of the old role, and your salary is still within the pay band of the new role, then I can see some difficulty in you challenging things. 

Dakta

Well that's exactly the issue, it isn't.

I'm used to colleagues being on different salaries, that doesn't bother me - I'm a grade lower than my equivelent role which means the pay gap is five figures. 

I do acknowledge the points raised above about it being difficult to challenge (in which case I'll just withdraw) but yeah, the difference is significant so it does matter. 

MeteredOut

Dakta said:

Well that's exactly the issue, it isn't.

I'm used to colleagues being on different salaries, that doesn't bother me - I'm a grade lower than my equivelent role which means the pay gap is five figures. 

I do acknowledge the points raised above about it being difficult to challenge (in which case I'll just withdraw) but yeah, the difference is significant so it does matter. 

If you are a grade lower than the role you're doing, then its back to documenting those differences and raising it with both your manager and HR.

But only you can decide if that causes any risk to your future employment there. I assume you've been here more than 2 years?

LinLui

MeteredOut said:

Dakta said:

Well that's exactly the issue, it isn't.

I'm used to colleagues being on different salaries, that doesn't bother me - I'm a grade lower than my equivelent role which means the pay gap is five figures. 

I do acknowledge the points raised above about it being difficult to challenge (in which case I'll just withdraw) but yeah, the difference is significant so it does matter. 

But only you can decide if that causes any risk to your future employment there. I assume you've been here more than 2 years?

"Oh dear, times are hard and we need budget savings,  and this post isn't within the budget..." I'm assuming that the HR department aren't insane or stupid. I doubt this "arrangement" was due to an oversight or error. And I'm sure they could find a way to dispose of the OP despite length of service. They headed off the real risk, and the OP doesn't have that discrimination claim any more. Now they just have to find a legitimate cause if that's what they want to do,  and it's not hard. Most people on this board could do it!