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Impossible electricity usage
Comments
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One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.0
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It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.0 -
It means it can DETECT reverse current, not necessarily record separate readings.BarelySentientAI said:
It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.
Other people have had it happen that their electricity meter wrongly charges them for feeding electricity to the grid.
I'm not sure how these meters are designed but 4 possibilities occur to me:
1) it ignores reverse energy and essentially allows you to steal electricity merely flagging up that reverse energy has happened at some point (seems highly unlikely)
2) it records reverse energy backwards like winding back an odometer on an old car (even more unlikely)
3) it records reverse energy as separate readings so that the energy company can work out the correct charges (the most logical option but I dont think this is the case).
4) it records ALL energy as being chargeable (which does happen and *might* be the case here)
Do you know how the meter deals with reverse current?0 -
Your four theories and where they are actually used:deathshadow1701 said:
It means it can DETECT reverse current, not necessarily record separate readings.BarelySentientAI said:
It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.
Other people have had it happen that their electricity meter wrongly charges them for feeding electricity to the grid.
I'm not sure how these meters are designed but 4 possibilities occur to me:
1) it ignores reverse energy and essentially allows you to steal electricity merely flagging up that reverse energy has happened at some point (seems highly unlikely)
2) it records reverse energy backwards like winding back an odometer on an old car (even more unlikely)
3) it records reverse energy as separate readings so that the energy company can work out the correct charges (the most logical option but I dont think this is the case).
4) it records ALL energy as being chargeable (which does happen and *might* be the case here)
Do you know how the meter deals with reverse current?
1) Unidirectional electronic meters (electronic meters that aren't smart).
2) Electromechanical meters.
3) Smart meters with multiple registers.
4) No domestic meters.
Yours looks like category 1 (no comms hub for a start). That's one reason why you have the additional meter for your solar system - which points the other way and only counts things coming out of the PV.0 -
BarelySentientAI said:
Your four theories and where they are actually used:deathshadow1701 said:
It means it can DETECT reverse current, not necessarily record separate readings.BarelySentientAI said:
It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.
Other people have had it happen that their electricity meter wrongly charges them for feeding electricity to the grid.
I'm not sure how these meters are designed but 4 possibilities occur to me:
1) it ignores reverse energy and essentially allows you to steal electricity merely flagging up that reverse energy has happened at some point (seems highly unlikely)
2) it records reverse energy backwards like winding back an odometer on an old car (even more unlikely)
3) it records reverse energy as separate readings so that the energy company can work out the correct charges (the most logical option but I dont think this is the case).
4) it records ALL energy as being chargeable (which does happen and *might* be the case here)
Do you know how the meter deals with reverse current?
1) Unidirectional electronic meters (electronic meters that aren't smart).
2) Electromechanical meters.
3) Smart meters with multiple registers.
4) No domestic meters.
Yours looks like category 1 (no comms hub for a start). That's one reason why you have the additional meter for your solar system - which points the other way and only counts things coming out of the PV.
Ok thanks. I'm not sure you're correct on method 4 though - there have been many reports of meters doing this. For example https://forum.ovoenergy.com/home-and-heating-138/electricity-meter-includes-the-electricity-generated-from-my-solar-panels-16360 - several people state this can and does happen.BarelySentientAI said:
Your four theories and where they are actually used:deathshadow1701 said:
It means it can DETECT reverse current, not necessarily record separate readings.BarelySentientAI said:
It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.
Other people have had it happen that their electricity meter wrongly charges them for feeding electricity to the grid.
I'm not sure how these meters are designed but 4 possibilities occur to me:
1) it ignores reverse energy and essentially allows you to steal electricity merely flagging up that reverse energy has happened at some point (seems highly unlikely)
2) it records reverse energy backwards like winding back an odometer on an old car (even more unlikely)
3) it records reverse energy as separate readings so that the energy company can work out the correct charges (the most logical option but I dont think this is the case).
4) it records ALL energy as being chargeable (which does happen and *might* be the case here)
Do you know how the meter deals with reverse current?
1) Unidirectional electronic meters (electronic meters that aren't smart).
2) Electromechanical meters.
3) Smart meters with multiple registers.
4) No domestic meters.
Yours looks like category 1 (no comms hub for a start). That's one reason why you have the additional meter for your solar system - which points the other way and only counts things coming out of the PV.
Also, why would electricity meters use method 1 when it makes it so easy to steal electricity and when method 3 would solve the issue while being incredibly cheap and easy to implement instead?0 -
There's a difference between "this is how meters work" and "a meter has done this sometimes". When they go wrong, they can do all sorts of stupid things (more so the electronic ones than the old electromechanical ones).deathshadow1701 said:
Ok thanks. I'm not sure you're correct on method 4 though - there have been many reports of meters doing this. For example https://forum.ovoenergy.com/home-and-heating-138/electricity-meter-includes-the-electricity-generated-from-my-solar-panels-16360 - several people state this can and does happen.BarelySentientAI said:
Your four theories and where they are actually used:deathshadow1701 said:
It means it can DETECT reverse current, not necessarily record separate readings.BarelySentientAI said:
It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.
Other people have had it happen that their electricity meter wrongly charges them for feeding electricity to the grid.
I'm not sure how these meters are designed but 4 possibilities occur to me:
1) it ignores reverse energy and essentially allows you to steal electricity merely flagging up that reverse energy has happened at some point (seems highly unlikely)
2) it records reverse energy backwards like winding back an odometer on an old car (even more unlikely)
3) it records reverse energy as separate readings so that the energy company can work out the correct charges (the most logical option but I dont think this is the case).
4) it records ALL energy as being chargeable (which does happen and *might* be the case here)
Do you know how the meter deals with reverse current?
1) Unidirectional electronic meters (electronic meters that aren't smart).
2) Electromechanical meters.
3) Smart meters with multiple registers.
4) No domestic meters.
Yours looks like category 1 (no comms hub for a start). That's one reason why you have the additional meter for your solar system - which points the other way and only counts things coming out of the PV.
Also, why would electricity meters use method 1 when it makes it so easy to steal electricity and when method 3 would solve the issue while being incredibly cheap and easy to implement instead?
The one on that thread was a type 3 meter - but that someone had accidentally set up to add import and export together into the same register.
There have been plenty of others where we have discovered that batteries had been set to look the wrong direction so they charged from the grid and not from solar, similar configuration errors on smart meters, people reading the wrong numbers, actually broken meters...
None of them are designed to deliberately add together import and export into the same number so the customer gets charged for both - which is what your method 4 describes.
Why does "not recording export" mean "easy to steal electricity"?0 -
I see - I hadn't realised a meter could fail in that manner, I'd instead assumed that some meters (before solar became popular) could be designed to count all energy used in case they were miswired accidentally or intentionally.BarelySentientAI said:
There's a difference between "this is how meters work" and "a meter has done this sometimes". When they go wrong, they can do all sorts of stupid things (more so the electronic ones than the old electromechanical ones).deathshadow1701 said:
Ok thanks. I'm not sure you're correct on method 4 though - there have been many reports of meters doing this. For example https://forum.ovoenergy.com/home-and-heating-138/electricity-meter-includes-the-electricity-generated-from-my-solar-panels-16360 - several people state this can and does happen.BarelySentientAI said:
Your four theories and where they are actually used:deathshadow1701 said:
It means it can DETECT reverse current, not necessarily record separate readings.BarelySentientAI said:
It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.
Other people have had it happen that their electricity meter wrongly charges them for feeding electricity to the grid.
I'm not sure how these meters are designed but 4 possibilities occur to me:
1) it ignores reverse energy and essentially allows you to steal electricity merely flagging up that reverse energy has happened at some point (seems highly unlikely)
2) it records reverse energy backwards like winding back an odometer on an old car (even more unlikely)
3) it records reverse energy as separate readings so that the energy company can work out the correct charges (the most logical option but I dont think this is the case).
4) it records ALL energy as being chargeable (which does happen and *might* be the case here)
Do you know how the meter deals with reverse current?
1) Unidirectional electronic meters (electronic meters that aren't smart).
2) Electromechanical meters.
3) Smart meters with multiple registers.
4) No domestic meters.
Yours looks like category 1 (no comms hub for a start). That's one reason why you have the additional meter for your solar system - which points the other way and only counts things coming out of the PV.
Also, why would electricity meters use method 1 when it makes it so easy to steal electricity and when method 3 would solve the issue while being incredibly cheap and easy to implement instead?
The one on that thread was a type 3 meter - but that someone had accidentally set up to add import and export together into the same register.
There have been plenty of others where we have discovered that batteries had been set to look the wrong direction so they charged from the grid and not from solar, similar configuration errors on smart meters, people reading the wrong numbers, actually broken meters...
None of them are designed to deliberately add together import and export into the same number so the customer gets charged for both - which is what your method 4 describes.
Why does "not recording export" mean "easy to steal electricity"?
It's been 22 years since I did A-Level physics but wouldn't swapping the live and neutral wires register as reverse current? Isn't that the purpose of the "rEd" flag/warning? So potentially someone could swap the live and neutral for a few months each year to make their energy bill much lower?0 -
I've just found the manual for my meter - apparently it can be set up in multiple ways, one of which is:BarelySentientAI said:
There's a difference between "this is how meters work" and "a meter has done this sometimes". When they go wrong, they can do all sorts of stupid things (more so the electronic ones than the old electromechanical ones).deathshadow1701 said:
Ok thanks. I'm not sure you're correct on method 4 though - there have been many reports of meters doing this. For example https://forum.ovoenergy.com/home-and-heating-138/electricity-meter-includes-the-electricity-generated-from-my-solar-panels-16360 - several people state this can and does happen.BarelySentientAI said:
Your four theories and where they are actually used:deathshadow1701 said:
It means it can DETECT reverse current, not necessarily record separate readings.BarelySentientAI said:
It quite clearly implies that it can separate one from the other - otherwise how would it know to put that label up?deathshadow1701 said:One thing I forgot to mention is that the electricity meter often said "rEd" (reverse Energy detected) - which implies to me that the meter is not designed to seperate energy in from energy out so would presumably charge me for the power I'm feeding into the grid.
No domestic meter of any sort increments for both import and export unless they are to different registers - and yours is a common model.
Other people have had it happen that their electricity meter wrongly charges them for feeding electricity to the grid.
I'm not sure how these meters are designed but 4 possibilities occur to me:
1) it ignores reverse energy and essentially allows you to steal electricity merely flagging up that reverse energy has happened at some point (seems highly unlikely)
2) it records reverse energy backwards like winding back an odometer on an old car (even more unlikely)
3) it records reverse energy as separate readings so that the energy company can work out the correct charges (the most logical option but I dont think this is the case).
4) it records ALL energy as being chargeable (which does happen and *might* be the case here)
Do you know how the meter deals with reverse current?
1) Unidirectional electronic meters (electronic meters that aren't smart).
2) Electromechanical meters.
3) Smart meters with multiple registers.
4) No domestic meters.
Yours looks like category 1 (no comms hub for a start). That's one reason why you have the additional meter for your solar system - which points the other way and only counts things coming out of the PV.
Also, why would electricity meters use method 1 when it makes it so easy to steal electricity and when method 3 would solve the issue while being incredibly cheap and easy to implement instead?
The one on that thread was a type 3 meter - but that someone had accidentally set up to add import and export together into the same register.
There have been plenty of others where we have discovered that batteries had been set to look the wrong direction so they charged from the grid and not from solar, similar configuration errors on smart meters, people reading the wrong numbers, actually broken meters...
None of them are designed to deliberately add together import and export into the same number so the customer gets charged for both - which is what your method 4 describes.
Why does "not recording export" mean "easy to steal electricity"?
"Unidirectional Register (Optional)Both the import and export/reverse energy measured by the meter are accumulated in the Total kWh register".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly method 4?0 -
After reading the manual, I'm a bit worried that EDF will be able to read the meter through either the optical port or the RS232 port, pretend it's not faulty and try billing me many thousands. I've got a video showing that all breakers are off but the electricity meter indicates about 20kW is being used but I imagine EDF could just say "it must be your internal wiring causing the issue, not our problem!" or similar.
If I got a smart meter fitted and the supposed consumption dropped significantly, would I stand a chance of proving they've been overcharging me for years? I imagine I'm up the creek without a paddle?0 -
deathshadow1701 said:"... Both the import and export/reverse energy measured by the meter are accumulated in the Total kWh register".Can you not see the state of the different registers by repeatedly pressing the button at the top left?I'm not being lazy ...
I'm just in energy-saving mode.0
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