Poss Sec 75 Chargeback Advice

henrygregory

I'm looking for some advice on the following problem I have had with a well known online retailer. 

 

On the 30th of June 2022 I made a purchase of a product which came with a 2 year warranty. The total cost of the item was £153. The purchase was made using my John Lewis Finance credit card. The product developed a fault towards the end of 2023. I contacted the online retailer and was advised that if I returned the product, it would be inspected and provided the damage was not due to abuse, I would be provided with a replacement or a full refund. If the product had been deemed damaged through abuse, it would be returned to me for free. I sent images of the flaw and the customer service staff agreed that it should be covered under warranty.

On this basis, I decided to use the warranty return service, so I contacted the retailer again to arrange return of the product. The retailer sent me instructions for return via email along with a pre-paid return label. I followed the instructions and sent off the faulty item, keeping my Royal Mail receipt for proof of postage, as per the instructions. 

 

Weeks on and I had heard nothing, so I contacted the retailer. The retailer asked for proof of postage, which I sent over quickly. Another week later and I get an email stating the retailer will not be progressing with the warranty claim as I have not returned the item.  

I explained that I had already returned the item and had already provided proof of return however the retailer replied stating that I must return the item. Again, I re-explained. I have done this four times and I am clearly dealing with someone reading from a script. The only deviation from their script was they stated I should take the matter up with Royal Mail and use the insurance provided by Royal Mail, but it isn’t my return label, I was provided it by the retailer so I doubt Royal Mail will be willing to deal with me as I am not the customer. When I ask to speak to a manager, I am cut off of the chat facility at the retailer. My emails are not being answered.  
 
I have visited the Royal Mail website and entered in the tracking code for the return and it shows ‘Delivered’ the day after I returned it so I am very confident that this is an issue with the retailer and not Royal Mail.  

I have contacted my credit card provider (HSBC) at the time to initiate a Section 75 chargeback. I have had a lot of issues as John Lewis changed credit provider and shut down these accounts some time ago so HSBC, who were the credit provider (I believe) state they cannot find me on the system and also state it has been some time since the transaction took place. I have since wrote them a letter with all of the evidence asking to consider a sec 75 chargeback. 

 I have heard nothing since and time is ticking. Can anyone advise me what I should do? My next option will be a LBA to the retailer and then take it to the small claims court becase as far as I am concerned, the retailer has my money and now has the faulty product but it denying I ever sent it buy they Royal Mail receipt and tracking says otherwise. 

 Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  

 

DullGreyGuy

First of all S75 and Chargeback are two separate things, one is a part of the consumer credit act and only applies to regulated credit products (eg a credit card) whereas the other is a process operated by card networks (visa, Mastercard etc) and applies to all cards on their networks. 

Chargebacks have time limits and you are certainly passed them being over 2 years ago so you need to drop the mention of "chargebacks" from the dialogue else you will be confusing people. 

S75 has no timelimit in itself but general law is 6 years for simple contracts in the UK. In the first instance I'd be contacting your former card provider and making sure it's clear you want to pursue a S75 claim for the transaction and support them in finding your account. If they cannot find it then its down to you to decide if you want to go with the Complaint/FOS route or the LBA/County County route with the vendor

henrygregory

DullGreyGuy said:

First of all S75 and Chargeback are two separate things, one is a part of the consumer credit act and only applies to regulated credit products (eg a credit card) whereas the other is a process operated by card networks (visa, Mastercard etc) and applies to all cards on their networks. 

Chargebacks have time limits and you are certainly passed them being over 2 years ago so you need to drop the mention of "chargebacks" from the dialogue else you will be confusing people. 

S75 has no timelimit in itself but general law is 6 years for simple contracts in the UK. In the first instance I'd be contacting your former card provider and making sure it's clear you want to pursue a S75 claim for the transaction and support them in finding your account. If they cannot find it then its down to you to decide if you want to go with the Complaint/FOS route or the LBA/County County route with the vendor

Thanks for your post. Sorry I got the S75 and chargeback muddled - thankfully, it is very rare that I ever have to consider such measures, though this is the second such issue I have had with product quality in the space of a year.

I have furnished the credit provider I believe to be the provider with a lot of evidence of my account including a front page of a past statement and then substantial evidence of my communications between the retailer even down to the emails they sent me with the attached delivery label I needed to print and attach to the faulty return. All of the bar codes match so there is just no question that anything underhand has gone on at my end. Fingers crossed they will get through all of the evidence and get back to me. 
Am I right in my assumptions that the retailer asking me to use the insurance that Royal Mail provide would be incorrect? I did't purchase the postage, it was provided by the retailer, they paid for it, not me so surely if I had have gone to Royal Mail, they would have refused to deal with me as I did not create the return shipping label.

Why these companies outsource their customer service clearly to countries a long way away where English and plain logic is not in abundance is beyond me as having spent around £2500 with this retailer in the past year and a bit, I will not be spending a penny more. 

DullGreyGuy

henrygregory said:

DullGreyGuy said:

First of all S75 and Chargeback are two separate things, one is a part of the consumer credit act and only applies to regulated credit products (eg a credit card) whereas the other is a process operated by card networks (visa, Mastercard etc) and applies to all cards on their networks. 

Chargebacks have time limits and you are certainly passed them being over 2 years ago so you need to drop the mention of "chargebacks" from the dialogue else you will be confusing people. 

S75 has no timelimit in itself but general law is 6 years for simple contracts in the UK. In the first instance I'd be contacting your former card provider and making sure it's clear you want to pursue a S75 claim for the transaction and support them in finding your account. If they cannot find it then its down to you to decide if you want to go with the Complaint/FOS route or the LBA/County County route with the vendor

these companies outsource their customer service clearly to countries a long way away where English and plain logic is not in abundance 

Rather an illogical idea that other countries lack the level of logic of English people, more likely something else.

Companies that want to cut the cost of customer service to the bone intentionally give advisors absolutely no authority or autonomy and it has nothing at all to do with their nationality/race. It is as frustrating for them as it is for you but employment rights tend to be much lower and so one minor breach of the rules can lead to you being sacked.

When I first worked in customer service we had a green screen system which had no controls at all, you could reduce a £2,000 item to £20 (which often happened by accident) when someone wanted to give a £20 discount because the item was late or there was a slight mark on the back of the sofa. Whilst working there they replaced the green screen system with a "modern" system. In the old system someone said they could afford to pay their bill we'd check their payment history, check their order history, look to see if they missed out on some extended payment terms offers etc and could negotiate a payment plan. The system would accept anything but the rules allowed an advisor to accept up to 50% reduction for 3 months or a team leader 75% reduction for 6 months. With the new system someone says they cannot afford the £500 a month but only £250... I had no authority at all, I'd click the buttons for a payment plan, type in their offer of £250 and it'd come back to me to offer them £480, if I clicked declined it may offer £470, click decline again and it would tell you to ask a team manager. 

What we did back then was realise that the new system couldn't deal with some enquiries and it would kick you back to the green screen and so you didnt put it in as a payment plan but a spare part enquiry get to the green screen and agree the £250 they'd asked for. Someone overseas doing that would be sacked, we got a slap on the wrist if the manager disagreed with the decision.

henrygregory

DullGreyGuy said:

henrygregory said:

DullGreyGuy said:

First of all S75 and Chargeback are two separate things, one is a part of the consumer credit act and only applies to regulated credit products (eg a credit card) whereas the other is a process operated by card networks (visa, Mastercard etc) and applies to all cards on their networks. 

Chargebacks have time limits and you are certainly passed them being over 2 years ago so you need to drop the mention of "chargebacks" from the dialogue else you will be confusing people. 

S75 has no timelimit in itself but general law is 6 years for simple contracts in the UK. In the first instance I'd be contacting your former card provider and making sure it's clear you want to pursue a S75 claim for the transaction and support them in finding your account. If they cannot find it then its down to you to decide if you want to go with the Complaint/FOS route or the LBA/County County route with the vendor

these companies outsource their customer service clearly to countries a long way away where English and plain logic is not in abundance 

Rather an illogical idea that other countries lack the level of logic of English people, more likely something else.

Companies that want to cut the cost of customer service to the bone intentionally give advisors absolutely no authority or autonomy and it has nothing at all to do with their nationality/race. It is as frustrating for them as it is for you but employment rights tend to be much lower and so one minor breach of the rules can lead to you being sacked.

When I first worked in customer service we had a green screen system which had no controls at all, you could reduce a £2,000 item to £20 (which often happened by accident) when someone wanted to give a £20 discount because the item was late or there was a slight mark on the back of the sofa. Whilst working there they replaced the green screen system with a "modern" system. In the old system someone said they could afford to pay their bill we'd check their payment history, check their order history, look to see if they missed out on some extended payment terms offers etc and could negotiate a payment plan. The system would accept anything but the rules allowed an advisor to accept up to 50% reduction for 3 months or a team leader 75% reduction for 6 months. With the new system someone says they cannot afford the £500 a month but only £250... I had no authority at all, I'd click the buttons for a payment plan, type in their offer of £250 and it'd come back to me to offer them £480, if I clicked declined it may offer £470, click decline again and it would tell you to ask a team manager. 

What we did back then was realise that the new system couldn't deal with some enquiries and it would kick you back to the green screen and so you didnt put it in as a payment plan but a spare part enquiry get to the green screen and agree the £250 they'd asked for. Someone overseas doing that would be sacked, we got a slap on the wrist if the manager disagreed with the decision.

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, English people or not is not the issue, but being able to speak English is. I don't think the people I have spoken to are understanding the sentences in English that I use such as "I have already returned the faulty product. Attached is a copy of the proof of sending from the Post Office along with proof of delivery, all atached for you" To which I get replies such as "Yes we understand sir but until you return the item, you will not get a refund". 

I am not in the slightest bit bothered which nationality these companies use but if they are not understanding what I am writing, things aren't going to work. 

I do get what you mean about the computer systems though and the limitations. The time wasted on trying to get a positive outcome is just unbelievable and if this continues for many more hours, I will have no choice but to invoice the company for my lost time as I think it is unreasonable to have spent already over 2 hours dealing with this and still making no progress at all. 

born_again

henrygregory said:

I'm looking for some advice on the following problem I have had with a well known online retailer. 

 

On the 30th of June 2022 I made a purchase of a product which came with a 2 year warranty. The total cost of the item was £153. The purchase was made using my John Lewis Finance credit card. The product developed a fault towards the end of 2023. I contacted the online retailer and was advised that if I returned the product, it would be inspected and provided the damage was not due to abuse, I would be provided with a replacement or a full refund. If the product had been deemed damaged through abuse, it would be returned to me for free. I sent images of the flaw and the customer service staff agreed that it should be covered under warranty.

On this basis, I decided to use the warranty return service, so I contacted the retailer again to arrange return of the product. The retailer sent me instructions for return via email along with a pre-paid return label. I followed the instructions and sent off the faulty item, keeping my Royal Mail receipt for proof of postage, as per the instructions. 

 

Weeks on and I had heard nothing, so I contacted the retailer. The retailer asked for proof of postage, which I sent over quickly. Another week later and I get an email stating the retailer will not be progressing with the warranty claim as I have not returned the item.  

I explained that I had already returned the item and had already provided proof of return however the retailer replied stating that I must return the item. Again, I re-explained. I have done this four times and I am clearly dealing with someone reading from a script. The only deviation from their script was they stated I should take the matter up with Royal Mail and use the insurance provided by Royal Mail, but it isn’t my return label, I was provided it by the retailer so I doubt Royal Mail will be willing to deal with me as I am not the customer. When I ask to speak to a manager, I am cut off of the chat facility at the retailer. My emails are not being answered.  
 
I have visited the Royal Mail website and entered in the tracking code for the return and it shows ‘Delivered’ the day after I returned it so I am very confident that this is an issue with the retailer and not Royal Mail.  

I have contacted my credit card provider (HSBC) at the time to initiate a Section 75 chargeback. I have had a lot of issues as John Lewis changed credit provider and shut down these accounts some time ago so HSBC, who were the credit provider (I believe) state they cannot find me on the system and also state it has been some time since the transaction took place. I have since wrote them a letter with all of the evidence asking to consider a sec 75 chargeback. 

 I have heard nothing since and time is ticking. Can anyone advise me what I should do? My next option will be a LBA to the retailer and then take it to the small claims court becase as far as I am concerned, the retailer has my money and now has the faulty product but it denying I ever sent it buy they Royal Mail receipt and tracking says otherwise. 

 Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  

 

That implies that there are other charges here.
So what was the actual item cost?
You also mention returning via warranty which I guess is not provided by J Lewis.

DullGreyGuy

born_again said:

henrygregory said:

I'm looking for some advice on the following problem I have had with a well known online retailer. 

 

On the 30th of June 2022 I made a purchase of a product which came with a 2 year warranty. The total cost of the item was £153. The purchase was made using my John Lewis Finance credit card. The product developed a fault towards the end of 2023. I contacted the online retailer and was advised that if I returned the product, it would be inspected and provided the damage was not due to abuse, I would be provided with a replacement or a full refund. If the product had been deemed damaged through abuse, it would be returned to me for free. I sent images of the flaw and the customer service staff agreed that it should be covered under warranty.

On this basis, I decided to use the warranty return service, so I contacted the retailer again to arrange return of the product. The retailer sent me instructions for return via email along with a pre-paid return label. I followed the instructions and sent off the faulty item, keeping my Royal Mail receipt for proof of postage, as per the instructions. 

 

Weeks on and I had heard nothing, so I contacted the retailer. The retailer asked for proof of postage, which I sent over quickly. Another week later and I get an email stating the retailer will not be progressing with the warranty claim as I have not returned the item.  

I explained that I had already returned the item and had already provided proof of return however the retailer replied stating that I must return the item. Again, I re-explained. I have done this four times and I am clearly dealing with someone reading from a script. The only deviation from their script was they stated I should take the matter up with Royal Mail and use the insurance provided by Royal Mail, but it isn’t my return label, I was provided it by the retailer so I doubt Royal Mail will be willing to deal with me as I am not the customer. When I ask to speak to a manager, I am cut off of the chat facility at the retailer. My emails are not being answered.  
 
I have visited the Royal Mail website and entered in the tracking code for the return and it shows ‘Delivered’ the day after I returned it so I am very confident that this is an issue with the retailer and not Royal Mail.  

I have contacted my credit card provider (HSBC) at the time to initiate a Section 75 chargeback. I have had a lot of issues as John Lewis changed credit provider and shut down these accounts some time ago so HSBC, who were the credit provider (I believe) state they cannot find me on the system and also state it has been some time since the transaction took place. I have since wrote them a letter with all of the evidence asking to consider a sec 75 chargeback. 

 I have heard nothing since and time is ticking. Can anyone advise me what I should do? My next option will be a LBA to the retailer and then take it to the small claims court becase as far as I am concerned, the retailer has my money and now has the faulty product but it denying I ever sent it buy they Royal Mail receipt and tracking says otherwise. 

 Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  

 

You also mention returning via warranty which I guess is not provided by J Lewis.

JL do provide their own warranty on many items

henrygregory

This has nothing to do with John Lewis? 
I used a John Lewis Finance credit card to make the purchase.

born_again

henrygregory said:

This has nothing to do with John Lewis? 
I used a John Lewis Finance credit card to make the purchase.

OK.
So how much was the actual item, not any other charges?
Who is the retailer?

henrygregory

Update, HSBC who provided the John Lewis credit card after several months refunded the total amount. Issue resolved after a lot of perseverance. Frustratingly, it seems HSBC are actually covering the cost of this even though the retailer is clearly at fault. Either way, I have my out of pocket money back.