Caravan damp dispute with dealer.

swecri

Hi All,

I am seeking general advice on a situation we have been facing with the dealership where we purchased our caravan just over 5 years ago. I am fairly au fait with the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and this has allowed us to reach a position whereby we are now able to start negotiating with the dealer...

To give some context:
We purchased a brand new caravan in 2019 for £23k. We have really looked after this caravan, including annual dealership servicing, general good maintenance, repairing any advisories and investing in necessary replacement parts when needed. We went away in May (24) for the first time of the season. Whilst away, during wet weather, we noticed water dripping at an alarming rate through a point above a panoramic skylight at the front of the van.
I looked online, and discovered this was widely reported by other owners of the same caravan, (also widely denied by the dealers and manufacturer) and was a fault with that particular design build. We have had the caravan inspected by several independent technicians who also found several other cracks and water ingress. 
The general consensus is that we were lucky that it had only just started on our van- many other owners report it happening much earlier into ownership: within the first couple of years, (some even months). The dealers and manufacturer all know this is an issue but deny this, defaulting to the line that 'this issue is not covered by the warranty'. I wrote a letter to the dealer, outlining our issues, and also stated that I was not interested in discussing whether the issue was covered by the warranty, but was instead seeking resolution under the CRA 2015 which supersedes the warranty terms. I listed three rights under this legislation:
1. our right to a repair,
2. our right to a like for like replacement (and because we had bought the caravan from new, we have a right to a brand new caravan as a replacement) and,
3. our right to ask they purchase the caravan back from us at a reasonable and fair price that reflects the caravan in an otherwise good condition. 

Fast forward, and after a short period of time, the dealer has offered to purchase the caravan back, but has said they can only offer us the lower end of the trade price. In good condition, a quick google search tells me a private sale fetches around £19k - £20k. The dealer has stated they are only able to offer us the lower end of the trade-in price of £14k. 

The dealership is in breach of contract because the caravan is not fit for purpose, it is not of a satisfactory quality, nor has it lasted a reasonable amount of time. 
In law, the main remedy in goods and services contracts is to return the claimant to a position that they would have been, but for the breach. My interpretation (but please do share yours!) is that we are entitled to expect an amount back for the caravan that is fair and reasonable, had we not have the issues of water coming in and £14k does not feel reasonable here. 

I would be really grateful please, of the input and opinion of others based on the above. Equally, if I can share anything further, please do ask. 

Thanks
Sarah

Rodders53

2.  You are not entitled to a replacement brand new caravan for a faulty 5 year old one. 

You are potentially looking at best the price paid less 5 years of use... possibly as low as half if the lifetime is 10 years?

You should be pressing for a favourable discount on a new caravan plus yours in exchange... if a new caravan is what you want. Then the £14k may be OK if the discount on the Brand New List Price is significant
It's never the numbers of P.Ex or New --- just the 'price to change' that matters.

Some marques of caravan have a lengthy water ingress warranty.  Some modern construction methods means water ingress is mostly cosmetic and the caravan structure is unaffected (rather than days of yore when the wood rotted and needed a structural rebuild).  Not a fan of the panoramic front window-skylight design myself.

Are you a member of the Caravan and Motorhome Club or Caravan & Camping Club?  Both have Legal expertise in this area that members can call on, and may also have member community forums where other have had similar issues.

I'd suggest you also check  forums like Caravan Talk where others have had similar issues.

You may need to name Make and Model of caravan and (potentially) the Dealership (as some have a 'reputation' )

I'll guess it's the avian caravan brand

lincroft1710

You most definitely do not have the right to "a brand new caravan".


Water ingress in caravans via the skylight has been a problem for over 70 years!

swecri

Thank you both for your responses. 

I refer to the CRA 2015, Section 23.132 which states:

Section 23: Right to repair or replacement

132.This section details a consumer’s right to insist on repair or replacement of faulty goods, the cost of which must be borne by the trader. This includes the trader bearing any costs involved in the removal of an installed item and reinstallation of a replacement. A replacement would usually need to be identical, that is of the same make and model and if the goods were bought new then the replacement would need to be new.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/4/5#:~:text=This includes the trader bearing,would need to be new. 

Open to hearing any other insight or interpretations into this section, but this was my understanding of this? 

swecri

lincroft1710 said:

You most definitely do not have the right to "a brand new caravan".


Water ingress in caravans via the skylight has been a problem for over 70 years!

For the sake of completeness, it's not the skylight. It's above a panoramic panel at the front of the caravan. 

swecri

Rodders53 said:

2.  You are not entitled to a replacement brand new caravan for a faulty 5 year old one. See https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/23 and let me know what you think?

You are potentially looking at best the price paid less 5 years of use... possibly as low as half if the lifetime is 10 years?

You should be pressing for a favourable discount on a new caravan plus yours in exchange... if a new caravan is what you want. Then the £14k may be OK if the discount on the Brand New List Price is significant
It's never the numbers of P.Ex or New --- just the 'price to change' that matters. We are not looking for another caravan, and if we were, we would not buy again from this ds. 

Some marques of caravan have a lengthy water ingress warranty.  Some modern construction methods means water ingress is mostly cosmetic and the caravan structure is unaffected (rather than days of yore when the wood rotted and needed a structural rebuild).  Not a fan of the panoramic front window-skylight design myself. Our purchase of this caravan was not because of this feature: I use oxygen and the unit is substantial. Our previous caravan was a 7ft wide one, this van appealed to us because it was 8ft wife and would give us some much needed extra space. 

Are you a member of the Caravan and Motorhome Club or Caravan & Camping Club?  Both have Legal expertise in this area that members can call on, and may also have member community forums where other have had similar issues. We used to be but cancelled membership because we weren't using it  

I'd suggest you also check  forums like Caravan Talk where others have had similar issues. Thank you- I will try this!

400ixl

Whether the retailer chooses to replace, repair or refund is down to them.

They are not going to replace a 5 year old caravan with a new one, so whether you feel you are entitled to a new replacement is irrelevant as they will not choose that option.

So, you are left with a repair if they want to, or a refund which is not a full refund of the original purchase price, they can deduct the value of use.

If you believe you can sell it for £19-20k when repaired then push for that. They are unlikely to offer you a retail value, but equally bottom of trade is also not reasonable.

Most caravans of 5 years old need maintenance to fix damp or water ingress. Its part of caravan ownership unfortunately. It will be a continuous battle year on year, some years you will not need to do anything, others it could be significant.

Tucosalamanca

As I understand it, dealers look to make £5k on each sale. That's preparation costs, warranty for new owner, overheads and profit.
£14k doesn't sound unreasonable for a part-ex.
You could phone some other dealers for comparable offers?

Mildly_Miffed

swecri said:

Thank you both for your responses. 

I refer to the CRA 2015, Section 23.132 which states:

Section 23: Right to repair or replacement

132.This section details a consumer’s right to insist on repair or replacement of faulty goods, the cost of which must be borne by the trader. This includes the trader bearing any costs involved in the removal of an installed item and reinstallation of a replacement. A replacement would usually need to be identical, that is of the same make and model and if the goods were bought new then the replacement would need to be new.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/4/5#:~:text=This includes the trader bearing,would need to be new. 

Open to hearing any other insight or interpretations into this section, but this was my understanding of this? 

You can't just cherry-pick sections.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/24
(8) If the consumer exercises the final right to reject, any refund to the consumer may be reduced by a deduction for use, to take account of the use the consumer has had of the goods in the period since they were delivered, but this is subject to subsections (9) and (10).

You've had four years use out of the caravan.

The starting point for determining fair deduction is what the retailer would buy it back from if it was in good condition, ignoring the damage.

In that context, £14k buy-in for a caravan retailing at £19k does not seem unreasonable.

Herzlos

Especially if you paid £23k for it 5 years ago. You'd be "losing" £9k on it which only works out at £1800/year.

I'd be very tempted to just take the buy back offer and move on, especially if you're not looking at getting another caravan.

Rodders53

As above - push for a repair if you can get an independent (paid for by you) report stating that the panoramic screen/interface was an "inherent defect"... so covered under the legislation you refer to.

That the dealer/manufacturer won't repair under the warranty suggests it's not "inherent". This 'problem' was around well over 10 years ago when we were buying our last caravan, so should have been ironed out on anything more recent.

There are plenty of "we buy any caravan" type places who may be willing to price yours with and without the fault for negotiation with you Dealers...  Or pay to repair it and sell privately.

You'd be best to move on.
We once bought a car and found the seats were so hard we had bad backache on a journey.  That was sold back at a significant loss of money.  That's life!