Don't demonise renters

mick15

theartfullodger said:

Agreed:  Demonise agents and landlords instead.

Best wishes to all.

Absolutely correct, too often it's the tenants who take the flakGrumpy_chap said:

mick15 said:

Why is it people who rent appear to be looked down on in the UK. Circumstances such as redundancy, divorce, death of a partner can all force perfectly good people into the rental market. The vast majority look after the properties they rent but sadly can rarely call it their home as they're never sure when they'll recieve a Notice to Quit, No Fault Eviction notice. It's always the poor Landlords, an outdated and derogatory term these days who are the hard done by. Actually they often implement over and above rent increases to cover their mortgage. Why aren't they credit checked like tenants? They don't like doing repairs and tenants don't like reporting them for fear of eviction. If the repairs are reported and carried out then a rent increase will surely follow. Often the property is advertised as 'No children or Pets' with group viewings which is nothing short of a cattle market. Gazumping and 6 months rent up front is quite normal, often driven by Estate Agents. Finding a Residential caravan site assuming they are able to purchase a static caravan is difficult as the majority of sites are 10/11 months only  where are these people supposed to go for those winter months when they HAVE to vacate their caravan home ? The Councils obviously won't grant a Residential licence, WHY NOT ? This needs to change. Live on a canal boat, many would jump at the chance but the rules & regs not to mention the Marina Moorings are excessive, often 3 times more expensive than Coucil Tax, and of course the council still want their slice of the cake if it's a permanent mooring. Ministers, Councils need to look at the alternatives to traditional rental properties if they are serious about addressing the housing problem. 

I guess there are good Tenants and bad.  Also good LLs and bad.

As a LL for 20-odd years:

• I have never issued a notice to quit, no fault eviction notice, or taken any other action to encourage a T to vacate the property.
• I would prefer a T to report an issue as then I can arrange for it to be resolved quickly and professionally.  This keeps the T happy and protects the condition of the property.
• Repairs are not linked to rent increases.  
• I keep rent increases as low as possible because a good T is valuable.  Current T moved in Christmas 2019 and we only increased the rent once in that time, by far less than inflation.
• I only once deducted anything from the deposit when the T vacated the property
• I once required a T to pay for a repair while in the property - this was a smashed window so clearly damage by the T.

I don't know what alternatives you suggest to address the housing problem.  Private Sector Rental is a valid part of the overall housing portfolio.  

You're clearly the exception rather than the rule. Some rent increases being passed on to tenants are over and above current inflation. Tenants are concerned about reporting repairs for fear of eviction....FACT. Doing valid repairs is part of the contract and a lot of rents (private sector) are often more than the average mortgage. If LL don't want children/ Pets in their properties then don't rent them out, simply sell them. Remove the term Landlords, it's derogatory. Free up caravan sites to residential status which would ease the rental sector.

Grumpy_chap

Murphybear said:

Grumpy_chap said:

mick15 said:

Why is it people who rent appear to be looked down on in the UK. Circumstances such as redundancy, divorce, death of a partner can all force perfectly good people into the rental market. The vast majority look after the properties they rent but sadly can rarely call it their home as they're never sure when they'll recieve a Notice to Quit, No Fault Eviction notice. It's always the poor Landlords, an outdated and derogatory term these days who are the hard done by. Actually they often implement over and above rent increases to cover their mortgage. Why aren't they credit checked like tenants? They don't like doing repairs and tenants don't like reporting them for fear of eviction. If the repairs are reported and carried out then a rent increase will surely follow. Often the property is advertised as 'No children or Pets' with group viewings which is nothing short of a cattle market. Gazumping and 6 months rent up front is quite normal, often driven by Estate Agents. Finding a Residential caravan site assuming they are able to purchase a static caravan is difficult as the majority of sites are 10/11 months only  where are these people supposed to go for those winter months when they HAVE to vacate their caravan home ? The Councils obviously won't grant a Residential licence, WHY NOT ? This needs to change. Live on a canal boat, many would jump at the chance but the rules & regs not to mention the Marina Moorings are excessive, often 3 times more expensive than Coucil Tax, and of course the council still want their slice of the cake if it's a permanent mooring. Ministers, Councils need to look at the alternatives to traditional rental properties if they are serious about addressing the housing problem. 

I guess there are good Tenants and bad.  Also good LLs and bad.

As a LL for 20-odd years:

• I have never issued a notice to quit, no fault eviction notice, or taken any other action to encourage a T to vacate the property.
• I would prefer a T to report an issue as then I can arrange for it to be resolved quickly and professionally.  This keeps the T happy and protects the condition of the property.
• Repairs are not linked to rent increases.  
• I keep rent increases as low as possible because a good T is valuable.  Current T moved in Christmas 2019 and we only increased the rent once in that time, by far less than inflation.
• I only once deducted anything from the deposit when the T vacated the property
• I once required a T to pay for a repair while in the property - this was a smashed window so clearly damage by the T.

I don't know what alternatives you suggest to address the housing problem.  Private Sector Rental is a valid part of the overall housing portfolio.  

You’re not a good landlord.  You’re an excellent landlord 

Thank you, but I don't think of it that way, or even as being a LL specifically.

I think of it as running a business, so customer service is key to success.  I am also not uncomfortably geared, so interest rate changes are not a concern and I maintain sufficient working reserve to fund any repairs promptly.

I do understand that some LLs are excessively geared and do not understand the role as a business role but were sold it as easy money.  These underfunded LLs, even if good people, simply struggle if there is a "bump".

Our current T moved in, IIRC, 21st December.  On second day, they reported an issue with the shower / bath / taps in the area leaking and / or crack in the bath.  I was grateful to be aware as, if left unchecked, this would have damaged the property.  There may have been a simple repair, but time was not on our side so before Christmas, we arranged for a complete new bath, taps, and shower to be fitted, plus reseal the tiles and floor.  All done and complete before Santa visited.  One happy customer.  Compared against the rent, the costs were not that great TBH.

I would, in fact, welcome rules that prevent the bad LLs from continuing but, I suspect, any rules that can be drafted would not achieve that outcome but would increase the costs of operating the business and this, ultimately, feeds into higher rents.  Hence why I would be happy to hear from the OP what changes they propose.

kempiejon

mick15 said:

Why is it people who rent appear to be looked down on in the UK. Circumstances such as redundancy, divorce, death of a partner can all force perfectly good people into the rental market. 

There you go looking down on the other people in the rental market.

chrisw

mick15 said:

theartfullodger said:

Agreed:  Demonise agents and landlords instead.

Best wishes to all.

Absolutely correct, too often it's the tenants who take the flakGrumpy_chap said:

mick15 said:

Why is it people who rent appear to be looked down on in the UK. Circumstances such as redundancy, divorce, death of a partner can all force perfectly good people into the rental market. The vast majority look after the properties they rent but sadly can rarely call it their home as they're never sure when they'll recieve a Notice to Quit, No Fault Eviction notice. It's always the poor Landlords, an outdated and derogatory term these days who are the hard done by. Actually they often implement over and above rent increases to cover their mortgage. Why aren't they credit checked like tenants? They don't like doing repairs and tenants don't like reporting them for fear of eviction. If the repairs are reported and carried out then a rent increase will surely follow. Often the property is advertised as 'No children or Pets' with group viewings which is nothing short of a cattle market. Gazumping and 6 months rent up front is quite normal, often driven by Estate Agents. Finding a Residential caravan site assuming they are able to purchase a static caravan is difficult as the majority of sites are 10/11 months only  where are these people supposed to go for those winter months when they HAVE to vacate their caravan home ? The Councils obviously won't grant a Residential licence, WHY NOT ? This needs to change. Live on a canal boat, many would jump at the chance but the rules & regs not to mention the Marina Moorings are excessive, often 3 times more expensive than Coucil Tax, and of course the council still want their slice of the cake if it's a permanent mooring. Ministers, Councils need to look at the alternatives to traditional rental properties if they are serious about addressing the housing problem. 

I guess there are good Tenants and bad.  Also good LLs and bad.

As a LL for 20-odd years:

• I have never issued a notice to quit, no fault eviction notice, or taken any other action to encourage a T to vacate the property.
• I would prefer a T to report an issue as then I can arrange for it to be resolved quickly and professionally.  This keeps the T happy and protects the condition of the property.
• Repairs are not linked to rent increases.  
• I keep rent increases as low as possible because a good T is valuable.  Current T moved in Christmas 2019 and we only increased the rent once in that time, by far less than inflation.
• I only once deducted anything from the deposit when the T vacated the property
• I once required a T to pay for a repair while in the property - this was a smashed window so clearly damage by the T.

I don't know what alternatives you suggest to address the housing problem.  Private Sector Rental is a valid part of the overall housing portfolio.  

You're clearly the exception rather than the rule. Some rent increases being passed on to tenants are over and above current inflation. Tenants are concerned about reporting repairs for fear of eviction....FACT. 

Of course they're not the exception to the rule, I'm the same but that just makes a meaningless sample of two.

There are over 4 million private rentals in the Uk and the vast majority of landlords and tenants get along just fine. The difference is that you only hear about the problems, no one ever writes in just to say how good their tenant/landlord is.

njkmr

I would echo what grumpy_man has already said.
I was similar for 20+ years.
 I don't ever recall putting up a tenants rent, whether they were there for 12 months or 10 years.
In fact the last tenant I had before selling up looked at me with a cheeky smile and said ,I can't believe you never charged me more, ( she had been in 5 years or so).
But for me a happy tenant stays put and means less void, empty periods ,less redecorating and less hassle all round.
I would consider renting myself if that's what suits me at the time, so I am not sure who " looks down " on renters.

Exodi

mick15 said:

Why is it people who rent appear to be looked down on in the UK. Circumstances such as redundancy, divorce, death of a partner can all force perfectly good people into the rental market. The vast majority look after the properties they rent but sadly can rarely call it their home as they're never sure when they'll recieve a Notice to Quit, No Fault Eviction notice. It's always the poor Landlords, an outdated and derogatory term these days who are the hard done by. Actually they often implement over and above rent increases to cover their mortgage. Why aren't they credit checked like tenants? They don't like doing repairs and tenants don't like reporting them for fear of eviction. If the repairs are reported and carried out then a rent increase will surely follow. Often the property is advertised as 'No children or Pets' with group viewings which is nothing short of a cattle market. Gazumping and 6 months rent up front is quite normal, often driven by Estate Agents. Finding a Residential caravan site assuming they are able to purchase a static caravan is difficult as the majority of sites are 10/11 months only  where are these people supposed to go for those winter months when they HAVE to vacate their caravan home ? The Councils obviously won't grant a Residential licence, WHY NOT ? This needs to change. Live on a canal boat, many would jump at the chance but the rules & regs not to mention the Marina Moorings are excessive, often 3 times more expensive than Coucil Tax, and of course the council still want their slice of the cake if it's a permanent mooring. Ministers, Councils need to look at the alternatives to traditional rental properties if they are serious about addressing the housing problem. 

A lot to unpack here.

The first thing I will say is I strongly disagree with your assertion "It's always the poor Landlords" - my experience has been the total opposite, landlords are regularly and routinely vilified. I'm not a landlord but I browse this forum and social media quite actively, and I see very little sympathy spared for landlords befitting of your characterization, quite the opposite in fact. I personally wouldn't be a landlord.

It's clear you have a bias on this topic, but each of your points about tenants getting eye-watering rent hikes or living in dilapidated accommodation, too scared to report a repair in fear of being evicted are countered by the opposite scenarios of landlords not increasing rent for many years, or finding the house trashed, or stuck with a tenant that refuses to pay rent or move out. Good and bad things happen both ways, it's not a fair way to construct an argument using one-sided extremes.

"the majority of sites are 10/11 months only  where are these people supposed to go for those winter months when they HAVE to vacate their caravan home" - unfortunately you have missed the point with this. The reason many aren't habitable all year round is because they are not intended to be your main residence, they are intended to be a holiday home and when you buy one you have to provide your main residence address. Because it is a holiday home, you don't need to pay council tax on it and you also can't receive post in a lot of cases. Holiday homes are intended to be used for recreational and holiday purposes, not living in full time (even though this happens).

The reasons landlords can be selective about "no children or pets" or estate agents can "Gazump and [charge] 6 months rent up front" is because they can get away with it when they have double/triple digit number of viewings booked.

Mr.Generous

Sound's like you might be renting from the wrong landlord Mick. Like others I do repairs immediately to keep tenant happy and protect the property. I've had boilers changed twice, both done much quicker than I managed to get mine done at home. No rent increase to coverthe cost. Rents go up every 2 years now, when I didn't put them up for 5 years I got complaints that it was "out of the blue" and that "I thought the rent was fixed as long as we stayed here" etc.

Section 21 used once as a warning, rent was never paid on time - they stayed 7 months, initial payment up front, rent late and short every month after. They caused loads of damage and eventually abandoned the house leaving it unlocked, bizarrely with a lot of belongings still there. Doors damaged, carpets burn marks and filth, worktops damaged, walls and paintwork damaged (they had a big dog in a 2 bed terrace without agreement).

Obviously all the landlords fault.

I have a tenant who sold her owned house to help her 2 kids get on property market and rents. How could you look down on someone who made this sacrifice? I have a tenant who wanted a large 3 bed with a garden so she can have her kids in a bedroom each and somewhere to play rather than live in a tiny street fronted terrace she could afford to buy. A tenant who rents to be near elderly relative to provide care. Who would look down on these people?

The tenants that are looked down on, like the landlords who are same, maybe need to look at the circumstances and actions they take.

Pollycat

mick15 said:

Why is it people who rent appear to be looked down on in the UK. Circumstances such as redundancy, divorce, death of a partner can all force perfectly good people into the rental market. The vast majority look after the properties they rent but sadly can rarely call it their home as they're never sure when they'll recieve a Notice to Quit, No Fault Eviction notice. It's always the poor Landlords, an outdated and derogatory term these days who are the hard done by. Actually they often implement over and above rent increases to cover their mortgage. Why aren't they credit checked like tenants? They don't like doing repairs and tenants don't like reporting them for fear of eviction. If the repairs are reported and carried out then a rent increase will surely follow. Often the property is advertised as 'No children or Pets' with group viewings which is nothing short of a cattle market. Gazumping and 6 months rent up front is quite normal, often driven by Estate Agents. Finding a Residential caravan site assuming they are able to purchase a static caravan is difficult as the majority of sites are 10/11 months only  where are these people supposed to go for those winter months when they HAVE to vacate their caravan home ? The Councils obviously won't grant a Residential licence, WHY NOT ? This needs to change. Live on a canal boat, many would jump at the chance but the rules & regs not to mention the Marina Moorings are excessive, often 3 times more expensive than Coucil Tax, and of course the council still want their slice of the cake if it's a permanent mooring. Ministers, Councils need to look at the alternatives to traditional rental properties if they are serious about addressing the housing problem. 

Do you mean by landlords or by Joe Bloggs?

I don't look down on people who rent.
Several of my friends rent, one in social housing, the other in private.
The council tenant had their bathroom and kitchen renewed, we've just paid a fortune to have ours done (we are pensioners and are mortgage free).
But at our time of life we don't have to worry about paying rent, whilst the renter does. Swings and roundabouts.
I treat people as I find them, regardless of their background, education, finances or housing situation.

Some might say that people look down on people who claim benefits.
Some people I know are on benefits.
Again, I treat people as I find them.

mick15

Mr.Generous said:

Sound's like you might be renting from the wrong landlord Mick. Like others I do repairs immediately to keep tenant happy and protect the property. I've had boilers changed twice, both done much quicker than I managed to get mine done at home. No rent increase to coverthe cost. Rents go up every 2 years now, when I didn't put them up for 5 years I got complaints that it was "out of the blue" and that "I thought the rent was fixed as long as we stayed here" etc.

Section 21 used once as a warning, rent was never paid on time - they stayed 7 months, initial payment up front, rent late and short every month after. They caused loads of damage and eventually abandoned the house leaving it unlocked, bizarrely with a lot of belongings still there. Doors damaged, carpets burn marks and filth, worktops damaged, walls and paintwork damaged (they had a big dog in a 2 bed terrace without agreement).

Obviously all the landlords fault.

I have a tenant who sold her owned house to help her 2 kids get on property market and rents. How could you look down on someone who made this sacrifice? I have a tenant who wanted a large 3 bed with a garden so she can have her kids in a bedroom each and somewhere to play rather than live in a tiny street fronted terrace she could afford to buy. A tenant who rents to be near elderly relative to provide care. Who would look down on these people?

The tenants that are looked down on, like the landlords who are same, maybe need to look at the circumstances and actions they take.

There are good and bad on both sides, Firstly I don't rent, an assumption you made, but I do have several friends/family that do. The term Landlord is derogatory in this day and age and that needs to be changed. Properties are often rented out after a quick makeover, many have damo issues detrimental to health and during the first winter the mould/fungus appears. Properties should be inspected prior to being rented and if any form of damp is found the property should not be allowed to be rented. 

Exodi

mick15 said:

Mr.Generous said:

Sound's like you might be renting from the wrong landlord Mick. Like others I do repairs immediately to keep tenant happy and protect the property. I've had boilers changed twice, both done much quicker than I managed to get mine done at home. No rent increase to coverthe cost. Rents go up every 2 years now, when I didn't put them up for 5 years I got complaints that it was "out of the blue" and that "I thought the rent was fixed as long as we stayed here" etc.

Section 21 used once as a warning, rent was never paid on time - they stayed 7 months, initial payment up front, rent late and short every month after. They caused loads of damage and eventually abandoned the house leaving it unlocked, bizarrely with a lot of belongings still there. Doors damaged, carpets burn marks and filth, worktops damaged, walls and paintwork damaged (they had a big dog in a 2 bed terrace without agreement).

Obviously all the landlords fault.

I have a tenant who sold her owned house to help her 2 kids get on property market and rents. How could you look down on someone who made this sacrifice? I have a tenant who wanted a large 3 bed with a garden so she can have her kids in a bedroom each and somewhere to play rather than live in a tiny street fronted terrace she could afford to buy. A tenant who rents to be near elderly relative to provide care. Who would look down on these people?

The tenants that are looked down on, like the landlords who are same, maybe need to look at the circumstances and actions they take.

There are good and bad on both sides, Firstly I don't rent, an assumption you made, but I do have several friends/family that do. The term Landlord is derogatory in this day and age and that needs to be changed. Properties are often rented out after a quick makeover, many have damo issues detrimental to health and during the first winter the mould/fungus appears. Properties should be inspected prior to being rented and if any form of damp is found the property should not be allowed to be rented. 

Sorry, I'm really struggling to understand the point you're trying to make:

You say the term landlord is derogatory and that needs to change, but then continue your crusade with specific anecdotes about bad landlords?

Your points about mould are not so black and white. Mould is a symptom of poor ventilation (or high humidity), which of course damp can also be a cause.

But a house with no damp issue can develop mould, for example if you repeatedly dry washing in a room with the door closed with no ventilation. The cause of mould isn't always the landlords fault either - if the bathroom extractor fans aren't vented then it's the landlords fault. But if the tenant refuses to switch the fans on after a bath/shower, it's the tenants fault.