Liability question re traffic calming on private road

Bodkin64

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

DullGreyGuy

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

You're not likely to be liable but there may be an outside risk. 

Generally, a static object is there to be seen and avoided. There are occasionally exceptional circumstances... at the end of our training on liability they tested us with an allegedly real case where a council ordered their contractors to widen a road by cutting back the pavement and repositioning 9 lamppost on the now narrower pavement. The problem was that there were actually 10 lamppost on the stretch of impacted pavement and the contractors being jobsworths left the 10th lamppost in its original position and so now a foot or two into the road. 

A driver was driving along the road in the morning with a bright low winter sun, claiming to be doing circa 15mph in the 30mph because of having difficulty seeing and drove into the lamppost. Liability was ultimate split 80/20 against the driver as clearly a lamppost was there to be seen and voided and if you couldn't see it because of the sun you weren't driving appropriately for the road conditions. However 20% did go to the council as they have a heightened duty of care and clearly shouldn't have left the lamppost in the road. 

user1977

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

Who has led you to believe that you may be liable for a driver crashing into a stationary object in your front garden?

Grumpy_chap

Bodkin64 said:

Hi,
We recently bought a house on a private road which is sometimes used as a rat run, so the issue of vehicles speeding and attendant road safety concerns is a hot topic amongst residents. According to our deeds we own the verge in front of our house as well as the stretch of road in front of it, out to the centre. There is a residents association that currently collects sufficient funds to maintain the road but not enough to install any traffic calming measures.

Are you certain the road has not been adopted by the local highways authority?

Juts because the houses either side own half the width of the road, does not prevent the road from having been adopted.

How long has the unrestricted access been possible?  
If no rights to pass along the road have been created, could you install a gate at some point that prevents the road being used as a cut-through?

Bodkin64

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

Who has led you to believe that you may be liable for a driver crashing into a stationary object in your front garden?

From speaking to a friend on a nearby private road, whose neighbour had apparently enquired with their insurance company on the subject. I intend to go and speak to him in person and get more to the bottom of this. I since found this page which perhaps ambiguously implies the same thing, “Landowners should note that they could be held liable if an accident occurs resulting in a claim.” Ok so this would be on the road outside your property but given we own this too it’s probably tantamount to the same thing…

https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/roads-and-travel/road-safety/speeding-and-speed-limits/traffic-calming-measures/

Bodkin64

Grumpy_chap said:

Bodkin64 said:

Hi,
We recently bought a house on a private road which is sometimes used as a rat run, so the issue of vehicles speeding and attendant road safety concerns is a hot topic amongst residents. According to our deeds we own the verge in front of our house as well as the stretch of road in front of it, out to the centre. There is a residents association that currently collects sufficient funds to maintain the road but not enough to install any traffic calming measures.

Are you certain the road has not been adopted by the local highways authority?

Juts because the houses either side own half the width of the road, does not prevent the road from having been adopted.

How long has the unrestricted access been possible?  
If no rights to pass along the road have been created, could you install a gate at some point that prevents the road being used as a cut-through?

100% sure it is unadopted, residents who have lived here for decades have established this. I understand that enquiries were made to the local authority about the legality of closing off the road; apparently it is legal, although non-resident users would have the right to object to it as it has potentially acquired public rights by long use. However evidently there is no consensus among residents to do this anyway, the subject has previously been raised by the residents association before we moved here. With this option being off the table there is also no consensus about what, if any, traffic calming measures should be put in place, which is why individual residents have started taking matters into their own hands, where we find ourselves now.

user1977

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

Who has led you to believe that you may be liable for a driver crashing into a stationary object in your front garden?

Ok so this would be on the road outside your property but given we own this too it’s probably tantamount to the same thing…

No, as I said it's quite a different situation. You expect people to drive down the road, you don't need to anticipate them going off-road.

(besides, seeking "legal advice" from insurance call centres is unlikely to give useful answers!)

Bodkin64

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

Who has led you to believe that you may be liable for a driver crashing into a stationary object in your front garden?

Ok so this would be on the road outside your property but given we own this too it’s probably tantamount to the same thing…

No, as I said it's quite a different situation. You expect people to drive down the road, you don't need to anticipate them going off-road.

(besides, seeking "legal advice" from insurance call centres is unlikely to give useful answers!)

It would neither be in the road nor in the garden, but on a narrow grass verge right on the edge of the road, much like this, so it wouldn’t be too hard for someone losing control to hit it. I think they could then try and claim (even if it was disingenuous) that it contributed to an accident.

DullGreyGuy

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

Who has led you to believe that you may be liable for a driver crashing into a stationary object in your front garden?

Ok so this would be on the road outside your property but given we own this too it’s probably tantamount to the same thing…

No, as I said it's quite a different situation. You expect people to drive down the road, you don't need to anticipate them going off-road.

(besides, seeking "legal advice" from insurance call centres is unlikely to give useful answers!)

It would neither be in the road nor in the garden, but on a narrow grass verge right on the edge of the road, much like this, so it wouldn’t be too hard for someone losing control to hit it. I think they could then try and claim (even if it was disingenuous) that it contributed to an accident.

If you include claims with no basis then you'd never step outside your home as someone can always claim that someone caused them a loss no matter how unfounded it is. 

The "you could be liable" as a road owner is massively more likely to be a claim for pothole damage to a vehicle or a cyclist that comes off hitting it. A small bit of fencing on the verge is almost certainly not going to be the basis of legitimate claim for a motor user of the road. 

Totally outside my area of knowledge but there can be rules on planning permission for putting up new structures that may obscure the view of the road, a relative had to take down their front fence, no idea the exact rules nor if they apply to unadopted roads.

user1977

DullGreyGuy said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Bodkin64 said:

user1977 said:

Why would there be liability? Are you saying that if a driver left the road, mounted the verge, and then hit a stationary object in your garden (and in this case it sounds like the verge is part of your garden), it might somehow be your fault? You're insured anyway.

That’s exactly what I’m saying unfortunately. I understand that a homeowner on a neighbouring private road was sued by someone who injured themselves walking in a pothole on the road outside their house. Have seen the text from the homeowner confirming this so it’s not rumour blown out of proportion. I don’t know if their home insurance covered their legal costs.

That's a rather different situation from a driver deciding to take a detour into your garden!

I agree, however I’ve been led to believe that under these circumstances, if you’ve deliberately added an obstruction of this nature then you’re likely to be liable for damages.

Who has led you to believe that you may be liable for a driver crashing into a stationary object in your front garden?

Ok so this would be on the road outside your property but given we own this too it’s probably tantamount to the same thing…

No, as I said it's quite a different situation. You expect people to drive down the road, you don't need to anticipate them going off-road.

(besides, seeking "legal advice" from insurance call centres is unlikely to give useful answers!)

It would neither be in the road nor in the garden, but on a narrow grass verge right on the edge of the road, much like this, so it wouldn’t be too hard for someone losing control to hit it. I think they could then try and claim (even if it was disingenuous) that it contributed to an accident.

Totally outside my area of knowledge but there can be rules on planning permission for putting up new structures that may obscure the view of the road, a relative had to take down their front fence, no idea the exact rules nor if they apply to unadopted roads.

None as far as I'm aware if it's a structure which is otherwise permitted development and doesn't breach any conditions in previous consents about retaining visibility splays. And still not an insurance point for property owners anyway (even if a planning breach), it's up to the road users to creep round blind corners or whatever other measures they need to take if their view is obstructed.