Probate nightmare, wills null and void

Happy_Kitties

Advice please. I would be very grateful
Applied for probate Sept 2023. I sent the Will and previous will, they weren’t in the best state. Process stopped and questions  asked about staple mark so did a statement that explained previous will attached had come away but had enclosed previous will.

Process stopped again and asked for the 1st witness details just before Christmas. 5 months the first witness waited for the form. In the end I had to involve my MP
Form filled in by witness and it has been stopped again asking for second witness details. Second witness happy to do this despite having been very poorly. I recently provided their details also requesting if they followed up could we not be waiting another 5 months for a form

When I  got the email about second witness details, it said about they were checking to see if the will had been executed properly.
On further research and talking to the first witness who was very close to DM it became very obvious that no one had witnessed her signature and the same for the previous will. First witness did state that on the probate questionnaire. 

i sent in a statement with the legal declaration at the end saying I believed both wills were null and void and explained why i.e both wills were not executed properly as no one had witnessed her signature.
When I sent in this statement I sent in an application for Letters of Administration. 

No property, no savings, very basic in nature but I do need the now Letters of Application for an important separate issue.

Has anyone been in a similar situation or can just give some general advice of something I haven’t  done, that would be greatly appreciated, especially as I’ve lost my MP caseworker with Parliament having been dissolved.
Thank you

Marcon

Happy_Kitties said:

Advice please. I would be very grateful
Applied for probate Sept 2023. I sent the Will and previous will, they weren’t in the best state. Process stopped and questions  asked about staple mark so did a statement that explained previous will attached had come away but had enclosed previous will.

Process stopped again and asked for the 1st witness details just before Christmas. 5 months the first witness waited for the form. In the end I had to involve my MP
Form filled in by witness and it has been stopped again asking for second witness details. Second witness happy to do this despite having been very poorly. I recently provided their details also requesting if they followed up could we not be waiting another 5 months for a form

When I  got the email about second witness details, it said about they were checking to see if the will had been executed properly.
On further research and talking to the first witness who was very close to DM it became very obvious that no one had witnessed her signature and the same for the previous will. First witness did state that on the probate questionnaire. 

i sent in a statement with the legal declaration at the end saying I believed both wills were null and void and explained why i.e both wills were not executed properly as no one had witnessed her signature.
When I sent in this statement I sent in an application for Letters of Administration. 

No property, no savings, very basic in nature but I do need the now Letters of Application for an important separate issue.

Has anyone been in a similar situation or can just give some general advice of something I haven’t  done, that would be greatly appreciated, especially as I’ve lost my MP caseworker with Parliament having been dissolved.
Thank you

It's a pain, but not a nightmare, however much it probably feels like one!

How long ago did you send in the application - and has your cheque been cashed?

Keep_pedalling

With no property or savings why do you actually need letters of administration? 

Happy_Kitties

@Marcon
Many thanks for your response.
Unfortunately a nightmare as DM sister is dying and as a family we feel we haven’t got closure as there is an ongoing serious legal negligence case where to say DM suffered is an understatement. i need either probate or Letters of Administration to push it forward, don’t  want to go into too much detail but it has been a black cloud over the family for nearly 4 years now and I’ve done a lot of battling myself to get it to the point I have

IHT form submitted September 2023, there was nothing in DM estate. Just sent a £1.50 postal order for a copy of probate otherwise no fee.
I sent the statement and a Letters of Application in, received last Monday but with the probate I’m 37 weeks in. Will they just declare the wills null and void and process the Letters of Administration  or follow through with the second witness statement to confirm what the first witness said before declaring null and void and then process the Letters of Administration? 
Many thanks

Happy_Kitties

Keep_pedalling said:

With no property or savings why do you actually need letters of administration? 

I don’t want to say too much, negligence case. Estate v ……… 
Got them to the point where they have offered to settle someone needs to represent the estate

Keep_pedalling

Happy_Kitties said:

Keep_pedalling said:

With no property or savings why do you actually need letters of administration? 

I don’t want to say too much, negligence case. Estate v ……… 
Got them to the point where they have offered to settle someone needs to represent the estate

Thanks for the clarification I understand why it is needed.

Do the laws of intestacy result in the same outcome as the will would have done?

Happy_Kitties

Keep_pedalling said:

Happy_Kitties said:

Keep_pedalling said:

With no property or savings why do you actually need letters of administration? 

I don’t want to say too much, negligence case. Estate v ……… 
Got them to the point where they have offered to settle someone needs to represent the estate

Thanks for the clarification I understand why it is needed.

Do the laws of intestacy result in the same outcome as the will would have done?

Yes, exactly the same. More instructions than anything else, for example if she had any surviving animals, the care of them. No partner 

i just don’t know whether they will still contact the second witness (I have mentioned that while second witness happy to do it even though they have been very poorly)before they declare the wills null and void or they will accept my statement and accept the application of the Letters of Administration. 

Marcon

Happy_Kitties said:

@Marcon
Many thanks for your response.
Unfortunately a nightmare as DM sister is dying and as a family we feel we haven’t got closure as there is an ongoing serious legal negligence case where to say DM suffered is an understatement. i need either probate or Letters of Administration to push it forward, don’t  want to go into too much detail but it has been a black cloud over the family for nearly 4 years now and I’ve done a lot of battling myself to get it to the point I have

IHT form submitted September 2023, there was nothing in DM estate. Just sent a £1.50 postal order for a copy of probate otherwise no fee.
I sent the statement and a Letters of Application in, received last Monday but with the probate I’m 37 weeks in. Will they just declare the wills null and void and process the Letters of Administration  or follow through with the second witness statement to confirm what the first witness said before declaring null and void and then process the Letters of Administration? 
Many thanks

From your post it sounded as if this has only been going on since last September, so I can quite see why four years is indeed far worse!

Not clear what you've actually applied for. You say you've submitted an IHT form, and sent £1.50 for a copy of probate, but has probate actually been granted, given that the will(s) are invalid?

Happy_Kitties

@Marcon

many thanks for taking the time to reply
i spoke to the Probate Agency on Monday and they said cases like this can take months as it is with a specialist team and I’ve already made my statement responding to their questions initially, so any recent statement they will ignore as they want the witness information. First witness has done this. 
it is probate that I applied for originally, IHT very easy and sorted. They said the will may not be declared null and void. Applying for Letters of Administration will cause slight confusion but all they will do is make me choose.
The recent  Letters of Administration would just be knocked back if the will issue hasn’t been sorted so I just to have to keep moving forward with the probate and to make sure to respond to any emails sent straight away.

They have taken extra information regarding the legal case and relevant dates, DM sister dying and also that it is killing the family with the constant black cloud. They also took details of the legal case including dates and are aware that the second witness has not long come out of hospital. They did say details being sent by email were being updated very quickly on the case and it is now basically up to the specialist team.

One thing I have found out is that with anyone in a similar situation, if there is something like a legal negligence case or court case involved where probate is important, they do like to be made aware of the details which I didn’t realise and will take extra detail.
It is a horrible situation to be in but once done, that is the hardest hurdle over and done  with and my only option is to continue moving forward with it

msb1234

It’s not clear why you have completed IHT forms if your mum’s estate had no value, you wouldn't have needed to do this. However, if there is a substantial settlement payable to her estate, there might be IHT due.  

Happy_Kitties

msb1234 said:

It’s not clear why you have completed IHT forms if your mum’s estate had no value, you wouldn't have needed to do this. However, if there is a substantial settlement payable to her estate, there might be IHT due.  

You have to complete a IHT 400  when there’s no Inheritance Tax to pay, but the estate does not qualify as an excepted estate which is DM