Economy 7 without storage heaters

Flynnyyy

Afternoon.  

I’m wondering if anyone knows of an economy 7 (or even 10) tariff that does NOT require storage heaters? 

Long story short, my apartment has flooded and I’m basically starting again from scratch - new electric boiler/heaters etc. 

Ive spoken to BG/Octopus/Scottish Power etc and they all require me to have storage heaters in order to get an economy 7 tariff (BG actually require that I use their own, at about £700 each!)

The reason I ask about NOT needing storage heaters is because i need the heat itself rather than the storage of it in the middle of the night. Both myself and my partner work shifts - I usually work from home on earlies and lates between 0800-2300 and my partner works 4 on 4 off (not at home) but starts and finishes at either 0400 or 1600 and so is often up and about between the hours of 0130 - 0500. 

I’ve been looking at the Sunamp battery storage water heaters and I also have a hybrid vehicle that I can charge overnight (from a 3 pin and not an EV charger - I don’t qualify for EV tariffs due to distance between parking space and meter). 

I have seen Home Energy’s E10 tariff which doesn’t seem to mention the storage heater requirement, but not sure about going with them having read the threads on here regarding them and Schneider etc. 

Much appreciated! 

Swipe

Flynnyyy said:

Afternoon.  

I’m wondering if anyone knows of an economy 7 (or even 10) tariff that does NOT require storage heaters? 

Long story short, my apartment has flooded and I’m basically starting again from scratch - new electric boiler/heaters etc. 

Ive spoken to BG/Octopus/Scottish Power etc and they all require me to have storage heaters in order to get an economy 7 tariff (BG actually require that I use their own, at about £700 each!)

Is that even legal? Can't you just tell them you have them? It's not like they will be sending anyone around to check.

Flynnyyy

To add - I do have a smart meter recently installed by Scottish Power and looking at my usage, I use around 30% of my energy at night currently but can set my dishwasher to work overnight and can charge the car overnight on top of this. 

Flynnyyy

Swipe said:

Flynnyyy said:

Afternoon.  

I’m wondering if anyone knows of an economy 7 (or even 10) tariff that does NOT require storage heaters? 

Long story short, my apartment has flooded and I’m basically starting again from scratch - new electric boiler/heaters etc. 

Ive spoken to BG/Octopus/Scottish Power etc and they all require me to have storage heaters in order to get an economy 7 tariff (BG actually require that I use their own, at about £700 each!)

Is that even legal? Can't you just tell them you have them? It's not like they will be sending anyone around to check.

I was wondering that to be honest - I’m not sure how they would know if I had them or not…!

bob2302

This sounds unlikely. Are you sure they haven't simply been strongly advising you against it?

That said, I suspect you might be better off on Octopus Agile anyway.

Flynnyyy

bob2302 said:

This sounds unlikely. Are you sure they haven't simply been strongly advising you against it?

That said, I suspect you might be better off on Octopus Agile anyway.

They were insistent that I had to have them. I checked and double checked because I was surprised it was a rule. I’ll have a look at Agile anyway, thanks 

Newbie_John

When we moved to our house it didn't have storage heaters and it was on Economy7, we were with EDF, then switched to Bulb, then Octopus.. never anyone asked if we have storage heaters - I didn't even know what that was tbh.
Just when prices started coming up I've realised I would be better on normal tariff and asked them to switch so they did - but the default tariff for my home is E7 and I guess always will be.
Saying that last year we moved to Agile (after getting smart meter) and that was a real game changer for us - understanding how much things cost, when to run things - if you can pick and choose - and have time to play it can be cheapest tariff out there.

Spoonie_Turtle

Who are you with at the moment?  What type of meter do you have?

https://octopus.energy/help-and-faqs/articles/what-is-an-economy-7-meter-and-tariff/
Rather contradicts whomever at Octopus told you you needed storage heaters:
"Originally designed to benefit homes with storage heaters that would heat up overnight, the tariff can also be useful for anyone who uses lots of power during the night."

In their full T&Cs this is the only thing mentioned about Economy 7:
"6.5.5 If you have an Economy 7 meter or equivalent, your electricity will be charged at two rates - a higher day rate, and a cheaper night rate. This night rate will typically apply for a number of hours between 8pm and 8am. The actual times that your night rate applies will depend on where you live." No other mention whatsoever - if NSHs were a requirement, it would be in the T&Cs.
https://octopus.energy/policies/terms-and-conditions/

British Gas requiring you to use certain storage heaters could be to do with the fact they've had massive problems with supporting smart meters set to Economy 7, and I don't know whether they've made any progress there beyond the one specific tariff they now offer for use with certain Dimplex Quantum storage heaters.  

No idea why the other companies are saying you have to have NSHs for Economy 7 though.  We see a lot of people come to this forum paying over the odds because they're still on E7 without storage heaters or much other overnight usage (which okay, fair enough, they usually had them before at some point).  But some people have actively chosen the tariff despite having even gas heating, and do well on it because of their usage patterns.  They are real life proof that people definitely don't need NSHs to go onto E7!

Scot_39

I've never heard of that specific condition re only get E7 if have NSH in posts here.

But it's probably not a bad general rule of thumb though for many to give as advice - to force people to think about it.

But like everything there will be exceptions - people who work shifts like your OH, so awake during off-peak window, people charging home battery arrays at off peak etc.  As have seen posts with people who just stayed on E7 - using sub 20% off peak - who found when checked were paying lots more on average/kWh - and the suppliers may have become more wary.

Even HW from an off peak immersion heater - especially if HW tank also feeds shower - easily 3-4kWh per day say - could be enough in many homes to make E7 cheaper than SR in summer.

And note E7 is these days often just a timed tariff, and not a wiring distinction - as it might have been in past.

As it can sit on top of two ways of wiring a home / and meter control thereof - everything live from meter 24/7 - or probably more so in past - homes with restricted power circuits - certain circuits only active - switched on by the meter (often even a second meter or RTS / mechanical time switch) only during the off-peak window. 

And that too can determine how you wire in night storage heaters, hot water tanks etc. 

As such modern smart meters generally come as 4 port or 5 port - the 5 including the necessary on board switching for restricted supply where needed.

[I suspect BG may have been pushing their bespoke / special tie up with Dimplex - which requires one of the latest versions of Dimplex Quantum RF model and iirc also the Dimplex smart hub. That is AFAIK not their only E7 tariff.]

As you are probably only too aware you do need to use around the 35-40%+ of off peak energy to make E7 pay - vs SR - and it's going to be a lot easier using storage heaters and an off peak immersion heater het hot water tank - than without - especially if it feeds your shower - to do so.  Use more and your average rate gets progressively cheaper. The exact percentage depends on region, supplier within that region and the balance between Ofgem SR and average multirate electric pricing (yes a separate cap rate to suppliers - that has swung as much as 2.2p in my region per unit in last couple of years etc.)

Given you are on split shifts and the overlap with partner - at 30% you are likely already pretty close to breakeven.

Especially if adding an Ev to the mix - iirc the 13A granny charger route uses just over 2kW power - 2.3kWh ? units per hour of charge.  Which could push your 30% off peak balance significantly if convenient /  safe to leave one plugged in even for a few hours overnight.

How was your flat het before ?

Modern HHR storage heaters are tested to a standard - that means they lose less heat than many old models.

But there not cheap - e.g. Dimplex Quantum's for the BG special tariff do retail online - on a quick google - at the £700-900+ for the biggest.

But you might only need 1 or 2 to heat the flat - if can leave doors open and allow heat to circulate. I have one large in LR - 2 small in halls - and they heat the bathroom, kitchen, and 2 bedrooms.

But then you are paying for that storage tech - as they do store that energy at E7's off peak rate - and deliver it when demanded - so take EDF current prices - top of table EM DD payment - c13.5p off peak, c29p peak vs c 24p single rate.

And like others at the top end of lot 20 and many HHR - the best come with programmable timers to release the heat - and actually use low powered fan assistance to do so efficiently. And use adaptive charging - so wont waste energy storing like the older models  - they will look at how much heat was needed the previous day / remains etc.

Short of ASHP / reverse air con units - and their COP efficiency - NSH and a decent off peak tariff - may be cheapest for many - especially those likely to want heat over the full day.

And if do decide to think about NSH - one further issue - wiring to them

Most storage heaters need 2 feeds - one restricted time (e.g. only live during off peak charge window - 7 hours if on a common e7 meter) for main charge wired back to the consumer unit - and one 24/7 live (like the rest of the house - lights sockets etc) for fan and controller / smart interface module etc.

Quantums are AFAIK pretty unique from the ones I've read about here that can be single wired - but that is still bespoke wiring back to the consumer unit (fed from dedicated 20A RCD per heater few years back - not checked current regs).

Keep_pedalling

If you have an EV then switch to something like Octopus Intelligent Go, to get 6 hours of cheap electricity (7.5p per kWh) You will need a compatible car or charger though. 

TheElectricCow

Octopus in my case were able to switch me to E7 by request, no questions asked. If you have a functioning smart meter it should be possible for any supplier to do remotely, so it might be worth persisting with them.