PCN from Gatwick Airport Drop Off Zone

MajorDisruption

Hello Money Saving Experts

I’m new here so hopefully I’ve done the correct thing in starting a new thread.

I’ve attached a scan of a NTK I received recently as the Registered Keeper of a vehicle seen in the Drop Off zone at Gatwick Airport [Sorry but I don't think I can attach the scan/not sure how to...but its the standard NTK ]. Having read the FAQs here (Thanks) I’ve attempted to redact any personal identifiers (but left the year in case it proves helpful in the future).

 

The background is, the vehicle was met by a representative of a Meet and Greet parking company  and the Drop Off zone is where they suggested the transfer should take place. Since they were presumed  expert in these matters,  these instructions were not queried and any Drop Off charges were assumed covered by the parking company within the payment they took. Clearly, one of the following has occurred to kick off this NTK;

1)      NCP’s ANPR system has failed to connect the Registration Number with one paid for and entered correctly by the parking company,

2)      The parking company have neglected to pay and/or identify the vehicle correctly,

3)      The instructions were misunderstood, a Drop Off charge was not included and it should have been paid in addition to the Meet and Greet payment,

4)      Something else.

 

Contact with the Parking Company is in progress to see if options 2 or 3 above apply, however the arrangements were made through a 3rd party and this may take a little while to bottom out. In the meantime the clock is ticking so whilst waiting I thought I could ask for further advice here.

 

I note that the NTK I received is identical to an example of one identified as non-compliant with POFA. I’d be very happy to run with that but I’d like to know what makes this NTK non-compliant;

a)       Is it that it does not contain details of the signage (contract assumed agreed to by the driver). There are two timestamped images of the vehicle provided in the NTK but nothing else?

b)      Is it because there is no detail of the initial Drop Off charge which is claimed to be unpaid?

c)       Or is it something else?

 

One non-compliance I can see (but won’t be apparent due to my redactions) is that the NTK was served/received out of time of the 14 day window specified in the legislation. For example, assuming that the NTK has a “Date of Incident” of 01/03/2024 then “Date of sending this notice” would be 25/03/2024. Would this be out of time and therefore sufficient grounds for a successful appeal?

 

Whilst waiting for contact with the Meet and Greet company what should I do in the meantime? Should I fire off the template Appeal now (adding the out of time) or wait, eating up some of the “grace” period of the Appeal process?

 

I certainly will not identify the driver…I have absolutely no idea of the driver in the 2nd image anyway!

 

Any and all advice gratefully received. Many thanks.

 

Coupon-mad

Yep just use the wording in the Heathrow Gatwick Drop off group thread.  Easy win!

Don't use the ordinary Template appeal.

LDast

The reason the NtK is not PoFA compliant is because they are not relying on PoFA in the first place. They cannot rely on PoFA because the location is under statutory control.

What the above means is that only the unknown driver can be liable and they cannot transfer that liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper. Catch 22 for NCP unless... the known keeper reveals the identity of the unknown driver, inadvertently or otherwise and so the unknown driver now becomes the known driver and NCP are able to now pursue the known driver for the charge.

So, why are you communicating with NCP at all other than sending them the following appeal:

I am the registered keeper. NCP cannot hold a registered keeper liable for any alleged contravention on land that is under statutory control. As a matter of fact and law, NCP will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because Gatwick Airport is not 'relevant land'.

If Gatwick Airport wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. However, not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because NCP is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for NCP's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and NCP has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. NCP have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Anything else is really a waste of time and effort to be honest. It is the unknown driver that drives the vehicle into the drop off area that is liable, not the unknown driver who drives it away. So, if you inadvertently admit that you drove the car to the location, in your conversations with NCP, you risk becoming the known driver.

MajorDisruption

LDast said:

The reason the NtK is not PoFA compliant is because they are not relying on PoFA in the first place. They cannot rely on PoFA because the location is under statutory control.

What the above means is that only the unknown driver can be liable and they cannot transfer that liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper. Catch 22 for NCP unless... the known keeper reveals the identity of the unknown driver, inadvertently or otherwise and so the unknown driver now becomes the known driver and NCP are able to now pursue the known driver for the charge.

So, why are you communicating with NCP at all other than sending them the following appeal:

I am the registered keeper. NCP cannot hold a registered keeper liable for any alleged contravention on land that is under statutory control. As a matter of fact and law, NCP will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions because Gatwick Airport is not 'relevant land'.

If Gatwick Airport wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under Airport Byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. However, not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because NCP is not the Airport owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for NCP's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and NCP has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. NCP have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Anything else is really a waste of time and effort to be honest. It is the unknown driver that drives the vehicle into the drop off area that is liable, not the unknown driver who drives it away. So, if you inadvertently admit that you drove the car to the location, in your conversations with NCP, you risk becoming the known driver.

Many thanks for your swift response LDast. Just to clear up any confusion, when I wrote "parking company" I was referring to the Meet and Greet company so my apologies for that. We've had NO subsequent contact with NCP and currently have no intention of doing so unless and until it's for payment or an appeal (the latter of which is looking extremely likely from your reply). I'll speak to the person who organised the parking hiatus and put their mind at rest. As Registered Keeper I will appeal this PCN using the template you kindly provided above.
And thank you for your last point re: "drives the vehicle into". If (as I suspect) I receive a further PCN for the "pick up" part I can genuinely tell NCP to Foxtrot Oscar cos I didn't catch the driver's name!

Lastly, and sincere apologies if you feel I'm asking too much here, but why oh why do you think that NCP implemented a system with no access/egress gates when they KNOW that their invoices have no legal standing?

Many thanks again.

Gr1pr

The short answer to the last question is simple, money and information 

Its a money-spinner that gouges money from the gullible or ill informed, or it obtains the actual drivers details so they can pursue the driver for the money , they may have legal standing against a Known driver, as mentioned above 

Various private parking companies are prolific at numerous airports, ports and stations, making money 

Its the oldest reason in the world,  GREED !

Coupon-mad

Lastly, and sincere apologies if you feel I'm asking too much here, but why oh why do you think that NCP implemented a system with no access/egress gates when they KNOW that their invoices have no legal standing?

Because it is VERY lucrative; it does have legal standing against drivers.  Just not keepers.

Loads of people fire off a knee-jerk appeal, blabbing about who was driving. Still more duped victims think it's a fine and just pay...

1505grandad

https://www.ibisworld.com/united-kingdom/market-research-reports/car-parks-industry/#FrequentlyAskedQuestions

What is the market size of the Car Parks industry in the UK?

The market size of the Car Parks industry in the UK is measured at £1.2bn in 2024.

Biggest companies in the Car Parks industry in the UK

Company                                                    Market Share (%)                                                 Revenue (£m)

                                                                     2024                                                                          2024 

National Car Parks Ltd                                                                                                                   180.5 

Q-Park Ltd                                                                                                                                      115.2

APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd                                                                                                                102.6 

Industry definition

Car Park operators in the sector are responsible for managing and overseeing car parking facilities. Their key source of income stems from imposing parking fees on drivers who use their services to park their cars or other vehicles. They ensure efficient use of space and provide a secure parking environment.

cashman82

Sorry to jump on another’s thread. I’m just checking this argument is still relevant?
Got my PCN this morning as registered keeper. Took the wrong turn looking for short stay, didn’t stop, 90 seconds in and out and had a booking in the valet parking. Contravention dated 17th August, letter received this morning although they date letter sent as 16th September.
How can you get a parking charge if you don’t park? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Coupon-mad

Of course it works as long as you don't add any words blabbing about what happened and implying who was driving.

This isn't anything new.  Non-POFA PCNs are mentioned in the NEWBIES thread as impossible for a keeper to lose at POPLA.

Umkomaas

cashman82 said:

Sorry to jump on another’s thread. I’m just checking this argument is still relevant?
Got my PCN this morning as registered keeper. Took the wrong turn looking for short stay, didn’t stop, 90 seconds in and out and had a booking in the valet parking. Contravention dated 17th August, letter received this morning although they date letter sent as 16th September.
How can you get a parking charge if you don’t park? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Providing it's a BPA operator (like NCP, APCOA etc) the above appeal will work.  If it's an IPC operator (like VCS) they will drag this out as far as issuing a court claim, then drop out later.