Am I right that I will never get a dropped kerb approved here?

RHemmings

artyboy said:

Putting rubber ramps there is just an invitation to the council to put a bollard on the pavement to block any further cars going over it. Why draw attention...?

You must be familiar with councils infinitely more likely to do anything about cars doing whatever they please than any council I'm familiar with. 

NameUnavailable

BagelLuvver said:

It's for a car, I'm afraid, not the bike.

Regarding rubber ramps, yes, that's what I was thinking. Probably the best I can do. And just hope no one parks in front of them. 

Don't assume that having a dropped kerb will stop anyone parking across it! I had this problem at my last property, constantly being blocked in or out by people parking across the dropped kerb or even on my driveway!!

artyboy

RHemmings said:

artyboy said:

Putting rubber ramps there is just an invitation to the council to put a bollard on the pavement to block any further cars going over it. Why draw attention...?

You must be familiar with councils infinitely more likely to do anything about cars doing whatever they please than any council I'm familiar with. 

There was another thread on here I saw with some quite interesting pictures of councils that had done exactly that. Including one where the car ended up getting blocked in as a result!

Can't say I'm bothered enough to go searching for it, but I'm sure someone else might...

Sapindus

RHemmings said:

Sapindus said:

If it's against the law to drive over a pavement without a dropped kerb, surely putting in rubber ramps is just an admission that you are breaking the law.

Which law makes it illegal to drive over a pavement without a dropped kerb. I checked the highway code and found this:

145
You MUST NOT drive on or over a pavement, footpath or bridleway except to gain lawful access to property, or in the case of an emergency.
Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & RTA 1988 sect 34

I cannot find any reference to dropped kerbs in either of the laws mentioned above. E.g. from: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/34

It is not an offence under this section for a person with an interest in land, or a visitor to any land, to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road if, immediately before the commencement of section 47(2) of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, the road was—

(a)shown in a definitive map and statement as a road used as a public path, and

(b)in use for obtaining access to the land by the driving of mechanically propelled vehicles by a person with an interest in the land or by visitors to the land.]

Note: I'm not arguing with you or taking the position that it's legal. I'm interested in the true legal situation as around where I live a heck of a lot of people drive over curbs to part on verges and footpaths. 

That's fair enough - maybe it is a grey area or something that is dealt with by council bye-laws, e.g.:

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/roads-and-pavements/dropped-kerbs#:~:text=Driving over a kerb or,served with a formal notice.

Just always been my "understanding" that lawful access meant having a lawfully constructed dropped kerb

RHemmings

Sapindus said:

RHemmings said:

Sapindus said:

If it's against the law to drive over a pavement without a dropped kerb, surely putting in rubber ramps is just an admission that you are breaking the law.

Which law makes it illegal to drive over a pavement without a dropped kerb. I checked the highway code and found this:

145
You MUST NOT drive on or over a pavement, footpath or bridleway except to gain lawful access to property, or in the case of an emergency.
Laws HA 1835 sect 72 & RTA 1988 sect 34

I cannot find any reference to dropped kerbs in either of the laws mentioned above. E.g. from: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/34

It is not an offence under this section for a person with an interest in land, or a visitor to any land, to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road if, immediately before the commencement of section 47(2) of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, the road was—

(a)shown in a definitive map and statement as a road used as a public path, and

(b)in use for obtaining access to the land by the driving of mechanically propelled vehicles by a person with an interest in the land or by visitors to the land.]

Note: I'm not arguing with you or taking the position that it's legal. I'm interested in the true legal situation as around where I live a heck of a lot of people drive over curbs to part on verges and footpaths. 

That's fair enough - maybe it is a grey area or something that is dealt with by council bye-laws, e.g.:

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/roads-and-pavements/dropped-kerbs#:~:text=Driving over a kerb or,served with a formal notice.

Just always been my "understanding" that lawful access meant having a lawfully constructed dropped kerb

That's interesting. I searched online to see if my council would have anything similar posted online. But, all I found was pages describing the process about applying for a dropped curb. Nothing at all similar to the Waltham Forest example of proscribing driving over a dropped curb. And even if I found such a thing online, huge numbers of people here openly park having driven over curbs and no-one ever seems to do anything about it. 

EDIT: In a rather unrelated search, I then immediately found this from my council. 

Do I need a dropped kerb? If you intend to drive a vehicle over the pavement into your driveway off a highway, then you will need a dropped kerb. If you do not have a dropped kerb, you must not drive over the pavement. If you do so, you are breaking the law* and enforcement action could be taken to prevent this. Furthermore:   You may become liable for a collision with a pedestrian.  You may become liable for damage to the pavement.  You may face considerable costs as a result of damage to any utility apparatus under the pavement. *It is an offence, under the Section 184 of the Highway Act 1980, to cross a kerb, verge or pavement with a mechanically propelled vehicle, except at a crossing point that has been approved by Leicester City Council as the Highway Authority for that purpose.  

Off to have a more careful look at that law. EDIT: It does not look so clear. My reading of the law (I am not a judge) says that there must have been a notice issued under section 1(b) of the law before it becomes illegal to drive over the curb. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/184

artyboy said:

RHemmings said:

artyboy said:

Putting rubber ramps there is just an invitation to the council to put a bollard on the pavement to block any further cars going over it. Why draw attention...?

You must be familiar with councils infinitely more likely to do anything about cars doing whatever they please than any council I'm familiar with. 

There was another thread on here I saw with some quite interesting pictures of councils that had done exactly that. Including one where the car ended up getting blocked in as a result!

Can't say I'm bothered enough to go searching for it, but I'm sure someone else might...

I did a search on 'council curb bollard', and found three threads. 

Here there is a pre-existing bollard and discussion as to whether this means there is no chance of getting permission for a dropped curb. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5306525/dropped-kerb-bollard-outside-would-be-drive/p1

Here a dropped curb already exists, and there seems to be a problem in the council allowing others to use it: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6261598/dropped-kerb-help/p1

This one asks a question as to whether or not the OP should buy a house with problem-looking parking in the street. There is a photo with some bollards and mention of the bollards. But, not specific discussion of the bollards being put in. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6426693/how-much-does-the-street-bother-you/p4

I'm not trying to 'prove you wrong' - but am interested in the situation, so searched. Searching with a wider variety of search terms will find more threads. I'm not saying that the above are the only relevant threads - just the ones that I found. 

All I can say is that I wish my council actually did something about people driving over curbs and parking on verges and pavements. 

Bookworm105

RHemmings said:

I did a search on 'council curb bollard', and found three threads. 

did you search for curb or kerb?
Changing my offer for a house after it has been accepted - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

RHemmings

Bookworm105 said:

RHemmings said:

I did a search on 'council curb bollard', and found three threads. 

did you search for curb or kerb?
Changing my offer for a house after it has been accepted - Page 2 — MoneySavingExpert Forum

Curb, and not enthusiasm. Early morning  



I wish my council did this to inconsiderate car drivers. 

Silvertabby

When a neighbour asked for a quote for extending his drive from single to double the figures included the (substantial) cost of widening the dropped kerb. 

He told the company that the additional, unexpected, cost would put the project over budget, and not to bother with it, as he would just put a small ramp in the gutter.

The contractor refused to do the job without the dropped kerb, as it would be illegal and he could face penalties as well as my neighbour.

Neighbour extended the drive himself by replacing part of the grass with loose gravel - and still bumps up and down the kerb.  We live in a cul-de-sac, so no-one in authority seems to have noticed.....yet.

Section62

RHemmings said:

....
Off to have a more careful look at that law. EDIT: It does not look so clear. My reading of the law (I am not a judge) says that there must have been a notice issued under section 1(b) of the law before it becomes illegal to drive over the curb. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/184
....

Correct. Enforcement under S184(17) is limited to contravention of a condition imposed by a notice under S184(1)(b).  It follows that if no valid notice has been served then no offence has occurred.  That doesn't stop some councils frequently claiming otherwise though.

However, it still isn't illegal to drive over the kerb, unless the notice states that as a condition. And the conditions imposed by a notice under S184(1)(b) have to be 'reasonable' - which it could be argued a total ban on vehicles crossing the kerb/footway is not.

For that reason (and some others) the councils in London obtained additional powers via a private act, which allows them - having served notice - to require an "occupier" to "cease taking or permitting to be taken mechanically propelled vehicles across the kerbed footway or verge". Councils outside London could only do the same if they obtain similar powers for themselves.

Sapindus said:

That's fair enough - maybe it is a grey area or something that is dealt with by council bye-laws, e.g.:

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/parking-roads-and-travel/roads-and-pavements/dropped-kerbs#:~:text=Driving over a kerb or,served with a formal notice.

Just always been my "understanding" that lawful access meant having a lawfully constructed dropped kerb

It isn't clear whether the £1000 fine Waltham Forest refer to is under the Highways Act power, or the local London one (which is poor on their part, they should be clear about the basis of their powers if they are threatening fines).

There's no general requirement for there to be a "lawfully constructed dropped kerb" for access to be lawful.

Albermarle

If you do not have a dropped kerb, you must not drive over the pavement. If you do so, you are breaking the law* and enforcement action could be taken to prevent this. Furthermore:   You may become liable for a collision with a pedestrian

Not sure how having a dropped kerb would decrease the chance of hitting a pedestrian. Probably increase it as you may be going faster if there is no kerb to slow you down.