Want to buy vintage tool. Site terms state that they are not liable if item is lost in transit

GervisLooper

This seems like a genuine and longstanding website so no reason to think they would do anything underhanded. It is just if anything went awry it seems they are trying to absolve responsibility for claiming a refund for any issues in transit.

Here are the terms: https://www.timelesstools.co.uk/salesinformation.htm

One thing that sticks out to me is they state that if an item gets lost in transit is it not their responsibility and that the buyer would have to claim for insurance. Doesn't make sense to me. The seller is responsible for that no? Not only that they should refund the buyer and make an insurance claim themselves not have the onus be on the buyer.

As I understand it the consumer rights act would make those claims on the website null and void? Regardless there is no guarantee an individual seller will honour the act as I had happen not long ago where a seller just decided to ignore me after I told them they were in breach. Most times though when citing the consumer rights act sellers have then done what is right but there seems tp be no consequences for failing to adhere to it except if you drug it to court I guess,

Issue is that I don't use paypal and they only suggest check as an alternative so if there were any issues the ball would be in their court wouldn't it?

Would be paying 60 quid or thereabouts so not a trifling amount I would really want to risk.

Hard to come by these items though. There is one other site but not sure of their terms yet as haven't looked closely but they seem to be selling for higher average prices.

Not keen on the wording though that the buyer has to make the insurance claim but they will help any way they can. They should refund the buyer and make the claim themselves as it is the seller's responsibility and item gets to the buyer safely isn't it? Just like when if a buyer wants to send an item back it is then their responsibility it gets back to seller safely.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hello OP

It's covered here:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/29

Passing of risk

(1)A sales contract is to be treated as including the following provisions as terms.

(2)The goods remain at the trader's risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a)the consumer, or

(b)a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

(3)Subsection (2) does not apply if the goods are delivered to a carrier who—

(a)is commissioned by the consumer to deliver the goods, and

(b)is not a carrier the trader named as an option for the consumer.

(4)In that case the goods are at the consumer's risk on and after delivery to the carrier.

(5)Subsection (4) does not affect any liability of the carrier to the consumer in respect of the goods.

(6)See section 2(5) and (6) for the application of this section where goods are sold at public auction.


I wouldn't send a cheque personally, any reason you can't sign up for Paypal or see if a family member will pay for you, with Paypal you are typically covered for non-receipt. 

soolin

Personally I would sign up to PayPal and use goods and services, that way any issues are much easier to resolve. I would not be sending a cheque under any circumstances. 

GervisLooper

GervisLooper said:

This seems like a genuine and longstanding website so no reason to think they would do anything underhanded. It is just if anything went awry it seems they are trying to absolve responsibility for claiming a refund for any issues in transit.

Here are the terms: https://www.timelesstools.co.uk/salesinformation.htm

One thing that sticks out to me is they state that if an item gets lost in transit is it not their responsibility and that the buyer would have to claim for insurance. Doesn't make sense to me. The seller is responsible for that no? Not only that they should refund the buyer and make an insurance claim themselves not have the onus be on the buyer.

As I understand it the consumer rights act would make those claims on the website null and void? Regardless there is no guarantee an individual seller will honour the act as I had happen not long ago where a seller just decided to ignore me after I told them they were in breach. Most times though when citing the consumer rights act sellers have then done what is right but there seems tp be no consequences for failing to adhere to it except if you drug it to court I guess,

Issue is that I don't use paypal and they only suggest check as an alternative so if there were any issues the ball would be in their court wouldn't it?

Would be paying 60 quid or thereabouts so not a trifling amount I would really want to risk.

Hard to come by these items though. There is one other site but not sure of their terms yet as haven't looked closely but they seem to be selling for higher average prices.

Not keen on the wording though that the buyer has to make the insurance claim but they will help any way they can. They should refund the buyer and make the claim themselves as it is the seller's responsibility and item gets to the buyer safely isn't it? Just like when if a buyer wants to send an item back it is then their responsibility it gets back to seller safely.

I do not use paypal by choice. Just like how I don't use amazon or ebay!

Protest!

I also accept that limits my options in terms of buying rights. Just how I also accept being vegan is a protest and limits my food options!

Undervalued

GervisLooper said:

GervisLooper said:

This seems like a genuine and longstanding website so no reason to think they would do anything underhanded. It is just if anything went awry it seems they are trying to absolve responsibility for claiming a refund for any issues in transit.

Here are the terms: https://www.timelesstools.co.uk/salesinformation.htm

One thing that sticks out to me is they state that if an item gets lost in transit is it not their responsibility and that the buyer would have to claim for insurance. Doesn't make sense to me. The seller is responsible for that no? Not only that they should refund the buyer and make an insurance claim themselves not have the onus be on the buyer.

As I understand it the consumer rights act would make those claims on the website null and void? Regardless there is no guarantee an individual seller will honour the act as I had happen not long ago where a seller just decided to ignore me after I told them they were in breach. Most times though when citing the consumer rights act sellers have then done what is right but there seems tp be no consequences for failing to adhere to it except if you drug it to court I guess,

Issue is that I don't use paypal and they only suggest check as an alternative so if there were any issues the ball would be in their court wouldn't it?

Would be paying 60 quid or thereabouts so not a trifling amount I would really want to risk.

Hard to come by these items though. There is one other site but not sure of their terms yet as haven't looked closely but they seem to be selling for higher average prices.

Not keen on the wording though that the buyer has to make the insurance claim but they will help any way they can. They should refund the buyer and make the claim themselves as it is the seller's responsibility and item gets to the buyer safely isn't it? Just like when if a buyer wants to send an item back it is then their responsibility it gets back to seller safely.

I do not use paypal by choice. Just like how I don't use amazon or ebay!

Protest!

I also accept that limits my options in terms of buying rights. Just how I also accept being vegan is a protest and limits my food options!

That is obviously your choice.

However you seem happy to ignore the seller's published terms of sale, in the expectation that they may be held to be unlawful should you encounter a problem. Surely a better choice would be to buy from somebody else?

I am never sure that it is a good choice to enter into a contract with somebody on that basis.

Aylesbury_Duck

I'd buy from elsewhere.  I admire your principled stance on the other matters, and I suggest you adopt the same stance here.  No point entering into a contract with a business that's happy to flout consumer rights legislation.

born_again

GervisLooper said:

This seems like a genuine and longstanding website so no reason to think they would do anything underhanded. It is just if anything went awry it seems they are trying to absolve responsibility for claiming a refund for any issues in transit.

Here are the terms: https://www.timelesstools.co.uk/salesinformation.htm

One thing that sticks out to me is they state that if an item gets lost in transit is it not their responsibility and that the buyer would have to claim for insurance. Doesn't make sense to me. The seller is responsible for that no? Not only that they should refund the buyer and make an insurance claim themselves not have the onus be on the buyer.

What  they actually say is different from what you are saying. Could have been better worded.

 Once the item has left me, I can no longer be responsible for delay or loss, it is outside of my control. I will help recovering any insurance which has been taken out 

So they will chase for you to reclaim money from courier (If it's a covered item) & these couriers do not offer insurance (which is a regulated product) they offer compensation up to the limit paid for.

So like above post you have your principles, I can only suggest that you add this to your list & source elsewhere.

As no cover when paying via cheque from bank.

Arunmor

The guy explains in detail why he has those terms.  If you don't like them then either collect in person, arrange your own courier or don't buy from him really quite simple.

Okell

I'd say it depends on how far you're happy to risk c£60.

It looks more like a hobby website than a professional sales site and its terms of sale look very dubious*.

Presumably you have a keen interest in vintage tools yourself so you might be happy to take the risk to buy something you really want but can't find elsewhere.


*As you've already realised yourself, the seller is responsible for the goods untilt they are delivered into your physical possession and nothing in the seller's terms can override that.  He also seems to be saying that he won't accept retrns of books and magazines.  Again he can't prevent consumers from exercising their statutory right to cancel a distance sale.  Personally I wouldn't buy from him 

PHK

Arunmor said:

The guy explains in detail why he has those terms.  If you don't like them then either collect in person, arrange your own courier or don't buy from him really quite simple.

Yes, people are missing that this is a hobby website. He points out that couriers won’t take this type of implement and what will happen if found. He recommends buying in person but will post if someone wants to. 

So, as you say it’s simple. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

PHK said:

Yes, people are missing that this is a hobby website. He points out that couriers won’t take this type of implement and what will happen if found. He recommends buying in person but will post if someone wants to. 

So, as you say it’s simple. 

I'm not sure the site is saying that, it mentions parcels being destroyed if overseas buyers ignore info about customs but instead says 

Most parcels are now sent via UPS (Main bladed items) or Hermes, the main reason behind this is that most other couriers will not honor the insurance on bladed items.

It also says

All prices include postage, packaging and recorded delivery for mainland United Kingdom,

Recorded delivery is a Royal Mail service and there's a table showing postage rates. 

The whole thing is a mess, hobby or not*, putting aside the non-compliance with any consumer legislation, the page could be written to be less confusing. 

The page also says:

I will help recovering any insurance which has been taken out (please note this may take a little while to resolve)

So he isn't saying lost parcels aren't his problem, rather he wants the courier to refund before he'll refund the buyer, but of course Delivery of goods (Section 28 of the CRA) supersedes this. 

*I don't think this is a hobby, looking at the home page he has a "stall" with a whole bunch of stock, clueless on the obligations of running an online outlet is clear but I don't think that's because this is an overflow of a hobby, rather just a niche area that draws little attention to terms probably written a long time ago where most customers probably have nothing to complain about as most transactions go smoothly.

GervisLooper said:

I do not use paypal by choice. Just like how I don't use amazon or ebay!

These sites are a bit of a love, hate thing, all three offer strong buyer protection policies to avoid issues like you might face with buying from this website you've linked.

Looking at the site is a bit like travelling back in time, sort of charming to see a small business selling their wares this way in a space now dominated by global corporates but at the same time you are also travelling back to a time where sending a cheque in the post for something you want to buy left you with little cover (beyond small claims) if something went wrong.