My Employer has not passed on my PAYE to HMRC (nor my student loan repayments to Loan peopl).

Zombat5

Actually this has happened to my daughter. Her previous employer (for two years) has been pocketing her PAYE deductions (and her student loan repayments). She was definitely PAYE and she has all her payslips and P60s.
However HMRC have now sent her a £5000 tax demand and are saying it is between her and her ex employer to sort the problem out in spite of the evidence she has.
Obviously this is nonsense (and her previous employer is a crook) but can anyone out there point us in the direction of the actual legal basis (Acts of Parliament etc) for challenging HMRC on this issue?

DullGreyGuy

So did she get a P60?

What are HMRC saying? That it hasn't gone through PAYE and she is self employed or....?

Zombat5

"So did she get a P60?

What are HMRC saying? That it hasn't gone through PAYE and she is self employed or....?"

I'm speaking to her tonight and will get more details.
There is surprisingly little on this subject if you do a search on google. Presumably this level of criminality is fairly unusual. The previous employer actually runs a legal firm handling family law cases (although he is not himself a solicitor).

eskbanker

Zombat5 said:

I'm speaking to her tonight and will get more details.

Probably worth getting hold of, and sharing on here, a (redacted) copy of the correspondence from HMRC?

mybestattempt

eskbanker said:

Zombat5 said:

I'm speaking to her tonight and will get more details.

Probably worth getting hold of, and sharing on here, a (redacted) copy of the correspondence from HMRC?

I agree, it is difficult to advise without understanding the explanation HMRC have given in their letter.

There's a lot of legislation which may be in play here depending on what HMRC established in order to reach it's decision and how it can be disputed/appealed.

Zombat5

Ok it seems that HMRC have got in a complete muddle about this. Everything is done on emails and apps. She received an email initially saying that her tax had been updated so "please go online to check etc". Online the HMRC App said she owed two amounts of tax for 2022/23 and 2023/24 amounting to approx £5k. She then wrote to HMRC  (both NI and Tax depts) and attached copies of all her pay slips which showed all the deductions for NI and tax. She received a letter from the NI section saying that they accepted the evidence of payment so all was updated. However the tax dept (via the App) was insisting that the £5k was owing. She then phoned HMRC and questioned this and was told that it was down to her to "take her previous employer to a tribunal to get the money off him".
However......when she checked the App this evening it was saying that she had in fact paid x amount of tax for 2022/23 and 2023/24. She checked on HMRC's 'how much tax should I pay' calculator and it was exactly what the App is now saying she paid. Sorry to give you all a headache but anyway she is going to phone the tax office again on Thursday and get them to explain why they are asking for more tax when exactly the correct amount appears to have have been paid. She unfortunately failed to retain her P60s and the company still haven't provided her with a P45 even though she left about 5 months ago. She has requested copies of all of them again.
Even if HMRC give way on this however they should never have told her that she has to get the money off her previous employer when they must know full well that it is the PAYE employer who is responsible once he has made the deduction from the employee's wages. The dispute must be between the PAYE Employer and HMRC.
However I would like to know what the Law actually says. My accountant said she should ask HMRC to quote their legal basis for stating that in a case where the employer has withheld deductions then it is the employee's responsibility to pay HMRC (so paying tax twice) and then get the money back off the employer. This must surely be nonsense. Any constructive comments welcome.
Even if this does come out ok she's still got to chase up the student loan repayments and these have definitely not been passed on to the loan company by the employer.

hupik

Zombat5 said:

Ok it seems that HMRC have got in a complete muddle about this. Everything is done on emails and apps. She received an email initially saying that her tax had been updated so "please go online to check etc". Online the HMRC App said she owed two amounts of tax for 2022/23 and 2023/24 amounting to approx £5k. She then wrote to HMRC  (both NI and Tax depts) and attached copies of all her pay slips which showed all the deductions for NI and tax. She received a letter from the NI section saying that they accepted the evidence of payment so all was updated. However the tax dept (via the App) was insisting that the £5k was owing. She then phoned HMRC and questioned this and was told that it was down to her to "take her previous employer to a tribunal to get the money off him".
However......when she checked the App this evening it was saying that she had in fact paid x amount of tax for 2022/23 and 2023/24. She checked on HMRC's 'how much tax should I pay' calculator and it was exactly what the App is now saying she paid. Sorry to give you all a headache but anyway she is going to phone the tax office again on Thursday and get them to explain why they are asking for more tax when exactly the correct amount appears to have have been paid. She unfortunately failed to retain her P60s and the company still haven't provided her with a P45 even though she left about 5 months ago. She has requested copies of all of them again.
Even if HMRC give way on this however they should never have told her that she has to get the money off her previous employer when they must know full well that it is the PAYE employer who is responsible once he has made the deduction from the employee's wages. The dispute must be between the PAYE Employer and HMRC.
However I would like to know what the Law actually says. My accountant said she should ask HMRC to quote their legal basis for stating that in a case where the employer has withheld deductions then it is the employee's responsibility to pay HMRC (so paying tax twice) and then get the money back off the employer. This must surely be nonsense. Any constructive comments welcome.
Even if this does come out ok she's still got to chase up the student loan repayments and these have definitely not been passed on to the loan company by the employer.

I am VERY concerned this is a scam and has all the hallmarks of being one.

What is the email address used by HMRC to make contact with your daughter and what is the address she has written to?

DullGreyGuy

Zombat5 said:

Even if HMRC give way on this however they should never have told her that she has to get the money off her previous employer when they must know full well that it is the PAYE employer who is responsible once he has made the deduction from the employee's wages. The dispute must be between the PAYE Employer and HMRC.

But that is one of the fundamental questions, has the employer declared her as an employee under PAYE. If they have and simply not paid the monies over then it's an issue between HMRC and the Employer. If they have given her payslips with deductions but never declared her as an employee under PAYE or submitted anything to HMRC about her then thats a much more complex matter. 

Dazed_and_C0nfused

hupik said:

Zombat5 said:

Ok it seems that HMRC have got in a complete muddle about this. Everything is done on emails and apps. She received an email initially saying that her tax had been updated so "please go online to check etc". Online the HMRC App said she owed two amounts of tax for 2022/23 and 2023/24 amounting to approx £5k. She then wrote to HMRC  (both NI and Tax depts) and attached copies of all her pay slips which showed all the deductions for NI and tax. She received a letter from the NI section saying that they accepted the evidence of payment so all was updated. However the tax dept (via the App) was insisting that the £5k was owing. She then phoned HMRC and questioned this and was told that it was down to her to "take her previous employer to a tribunal to get the money off him".
However......when she checked the App this evening it was saying that she had in fact paid x amount of tax for 2022/23 and 2023/24. She checked on HMRC's 'how much tax should I pay' calculator and it was exactly what the App is now saying she paid. Sorry to give you all a headache but anyway she is going to phone the tax office again on Thursday and get them to explain why they are asking for more tax when exactly the correct amount appears to have have been paid. She unfortunately failed to retain her P60s and the company still haven't provided her with a P45 even though she left about 5 months ago. She has requested copies of all of them again.
Even if HMRC give way on this however they should never have told her that she has to get the money off her previous employer when they must know full well that it is the PAYE employer who is responsible once he has made the deduction from the employee's wages. The dispute must be between the PAYE Employer and HMRC.
However I would like to know what the Law actually says. My accountant said she should ask HMRC to quote their legal basis for stating that in a case where the employer has withheld deductions then it is the employee's responsibility to pay HMRC (so paying tax twice) and then get the money back off the employer. This must surely be nonsense. Any constructive comments welcome.
Even if this does come out ok she's still got to chase up the student loan repayments and these have definitely not been passed on to the loan company by the employer.

I am VERY concerned this is a scam and has all the hallmarks of being one.

What is the email address used by HMRC to make contact with your daughter and what is the address she has written to?

Tend to agree.

Whether tax and NI has been paid is usually of no relevance, that's a matter between the employer and HMRC's debt collection department.

It's what had been deducted and reported under the Real Time Information system that counts.

HampshireH

I've never known HMRC to do things by email it has always been by post. Although I see they now have an app.

Zombat5

Much appreciate all your input.
Pretty sure it's not a scam. I believe HMRC let people know by email if their tax has been updated but that is just an alert. They refer you to the App which she already had set up and It was the App that gave the initial information about what was owing.
Just to be clear, the employer is not  a tiny firm with one or two employers. It is a Family Law firm registered with the SRA and employs a number of solicitors, many paralegals and hires in barristers for individual cases. Also, my daughter consulted ACAS about the situation recently and one of the first things they said she should do is report it to HMRC Fraud Department which she has done.
I'll know more on Thursday.