Making administering an estate easier before death

mwddrwg

Hi everyone

My parents have come to me for some advice on a looming situation concerning my father's brother who was recently diagnosed with terminal cancer. They are the type of family who don't talk much to each other about "difficult" subjects such as death, finances and such like, so I thought I'd ask you knowledgable folks here for advice.

Situation is as follows:

My uncle (Dad's brother, no wife, no children) lives on his own in a small house (no mortgage) since their mother died about 20 years ago. Their father bought the house in the 1960's and he died in 1983. No one has any idea if any probate was done following either death so the actual owner of the house where my uncle lives is not absolutely clear. 

Is there any way for my dad to check who owns the house via Land Registry or similar? A quick search on their site under the house number and postcode states no details held. My uncle really needs to get an LPA or EPA in place quite soon as he's inevitably going to get worse in the next few months - problem is my dad's reluctant to bring this up with him. I'm worried that things will progress quicker than expected and make this bit impossible.

My dad is concerned that they may not be able to have access to his accounts to pay for his funeral when the time comes if they have no access arrangements in place. My uncle still uses cash for everything and takes a lump sum out once a week when my dad takes him to the bank. 

 Anyway - my main question at the moment is how to establish ownership of the house. We can then look to get the LPA in place and have that awkward discussion!

Many thanks all

Flugelhorn

suspect ownership of the house may be down to the deeds - grandad probably bought it and it will have gone to his wife on death and then probably still under her name - if it has not been sold and there were no changes made it may not have been formally / electronically registered

I wonder if @Land_Registry can help? 

re the paying for the funeral etc - that is the one bill that banks will pay out of the deceased's account - so shouldn't be a problem at the time - agree it would be better if you had a bit more info about accounts / utilities / insurance etc etc 

mwddrwg

Flugelhorn said:

suspect ownership of the house may be down to the deeds - grandad probably bought it and it will have gone to his wife on death and then probably still under her name - if it has not been sold and there were no changes made it may not have been formally / electronically registered

I wonder if @Land_Registry can help? 

re the paying for the funeral etc - that is the one bill that banks will pay out of the deceased's account - so shouldn't be a problem at the time - agree it would be better if you had a bit more info about accounts / utilities / insurance etc etc 

Thanks for your reply

I suspect that this is exactly what has happened with regard to the house. How would it be treated if the house is still in my late gran's name? Her immediate family is my dad and my uncle who lives there. Would they automatically inherit it jointly or is it not as simple as that? 

Another issue I forgot to mention is that my uncle has no known will at the moment, which is another thing someone needs to discuss with him before it gets urgent. 

Marcon

mwddrwg said:

Flugelhorn said:

suspect ownership of the house may be down to the deeds - grandad probably bought it and it will have gone to his wife on death and then probably still under her name - if it has not been sold and there were no changes made it may not have been formally / electronically registered

I wonder if @Land_Registry can help? 

re the paying for the funeral etc - that is the one bill that banks will pay out of the deceased's account - so shouldn't be a problem at the time - agree it would be better if you had a bit more info about accounts / utilities / insurance etc etc 

Thanks for your reply

I suspect that this is exactly what has happened with regard to the house. How would it be treated if the house is still in my late gran's name? Her immediate family is my dad and my uncle who lives there. Would they automatically inherit it jointly or is it not as simple as that? 

If probate hasn't been done, then going back so many years is possibly going to be something of a headache. Any idea what the house would have been worth in 1983(!) bearing in mind that only £60K of the estate would be IHT free? If there's tax to pay, especially if there were other assets, that is going to make things a bit muddy.

mwddrwg said:

My uncle (Dad's brother, no wife, no children) lives on his own in a small house (no mortgage) since their mother died about 20 years ago. Their father bought the house in the 1960's and he died in 1983. No one has any idea if any probate was done following either death so the actual owner of the house where my uncle lives is not absolutely clear. 

Check here: https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

Suggest you get some professional advice sooner rather than later, especially if your uncle hasn't made a will and wishes to do so. He might not, of course - many people don't, and that's their prerogative, awkward and unhappy as it may be for all concerned.

Cairnpapple

Nothing to advise on the Land Registry but I wanted to say that Macmillan (or hospice, if involved) may be able to give some useful advice on how to approach the difficult discussions.

Flugelhorn

mwddrwg said:

Flugelhorn said:

suspect ownership of the house may be down to the deeds - grandad probably bought it and it will have gone to his wife on death and then probably still under her name - if it has not been sold and there were no changes made it may not have been formally / electronically registered

I wonder if @Land_Registry can help? 

re the paying for the funeral etc - that is the one bill that banks will pay out of the deceased's account - so shouldn't be a problem at the time - agree it would be better if you had a bit more info about accounts / utilities / insurance etc etc 

Thanks for your reply

I suspect that this is exactly what has happened with regard to the house. How would it be treated if the house is still in my late gran's name? Her immediate family is my dad and my uncle who lives there. Would they automatically inherit it jointly or is it not as simple as that? 

Another issue I forgot to mention is that my uncle has no known will at the moment, which is another thing someone needs to discuss with him before it gets urgent. 

IF the property is in Gran's name still (have you checked the Land Registry to see if it is registered? ) then you wouild need to see if she had probate - if not then would need probate / admin (depending on whether there was a will) - if no will then assume it went to your Dad and brother equally - to do anything with the property though will have to go back to the grandparents deaths. 

Brie

Without trying to sound too brutal, how terminal is terminal?  In the sense of how much time does uncle have?  I know these can be "how long is a piece of string" type of thing so it may be hard to know for sure.  Net result is I think you need a game plan for both "soon" and "not too soon".

For the "soon" side -

POA or LPA things can take some time.  You can diy them at about £85 each which might be least painful as it will look less formal, no solicitor to be serious etc.  So they might be planned on but in the meantime while uncle is still mobile it might be a good idea for your dad (or you?) gets third party authority on his bank accounts.  This will help so that money can still be moved, withdrawn at that point he's less able but still has things to be paid for.  With TPA DDs and standing orders can be set up and money taken out at an ATM with the bank being fully aware and not calling "fraud". 
Another good thing to get is a letter of authority signed.  This would be something like "I (uncle's name) authorise (your name? dad's name) to deal with everything on my account on my behalf."  Signed, dated, uncle's address.  With this you (or dad) can help deal with his phone bill, utilities, council tax.  Not  generally bank stuff but most other things.
Please note both of these things die with the authoriser.
ALSO - apply for attendance allowance on a fast track given the type of diagnosis.  This will help to pay for extras that might come with the illness, should there be a need for extra cash.  MacMillan or Citizen's Advice are champions at these.

For the "not too soon" - 
Well that will be the POAs (care/health & financial).  At some point questions will be asked about what should be done about his care, living arrangements etc.  And some banks and other organisations might want something more formal than a letter of authorisation.
And a will which might be DIY if his life is reallllly simple but a solicitor should be involved if there's any complications.  That said the needs of this might be covered by a couple of good conversations (maybe recorded?) and a letter which is sometimes called a "letter of intent" or a "living will".  If dad is his only sibling, there's been no marriages or children then I believe without a will everything will come to dad.  But if there's more siblings or a few secrets in the distant past it's better to have these things written down and made official.  Maybe uncle wants to leave his house to his favourite nephew and nothing go to a sister he had a fight with 30 years back.  These need to be stated.  The "letter" might also cover things like what he wants at his funeral, music, flowers, rocket scattering his ashes, whatever.  

It's time to talk about all these things and get fusses from the past sorted out before it's too late.  Uncle might be reluctant to talk about a lot of things but maybe he'd like to write people letters that would be saved for "later".  

Land_Registry

Flugelhorn said:

suspect ownership of the house may be down to the deeds - grandad probably bought it and it will have gone to his wife on death and then probably still under her name - if it has not been sold and there were no changes made it may not have been formally / electronically registered

I wonder if @Land_Registry can help? 

re the paying for the funeral etc - that is the one bill that banks will pay out of the deceased's account - so shouldn't be a problem at the time - agree it would be better if you had a bit more info about accounts / utilities / insurance etc etc 

Ownership of the house would start with deeds as it appears the property is unregistered. If he bought in the 60s then you can’t assume that on his death his widow did anything re the legal ownership and may simply have inherited. 

So first Q is where are the deeds to prove legal ownership. If they stop at the original Father’s purchase (conveyance) then the legal ownership remains part of his estate. And if so the first probate you need is his. 

If it was conveyed to his widow since his death then the legal ownership forms part of her estate and probate for her is needed. 

So first thing to do is find the deeds and see where they start and end. If you can find them then they provide a clearer way forward if you then have probate(s) as appropriate 
If the family is as you suggest then wills/probate may not be involved and the deeds lost. If that’s the case then it’s certainly legal help you need here as you are going to need to try to register the property based on the ‘facts’ as known depending on whose going to claim ownership and how it’s passed to him. 

House, bank or solicitor are your three most likely storage place for the deeds.