Land registry Search

Kirkmain

user1977 said:

But you say it's owned by your parents? Aren't you on speaking terms with your parents? It's entirely possible the estate administration was dealt with at the time - like we've said, that doesn't necessarily show up at the Land Registry. And no, the administrator doesn't end up personally owning the estate by default simply by not distributing it to the beneficiaries.

They could do a deed of variation now, yes, though it's too late for that to have any tax-saving consequence (which is often the motivation for doing one).

Might be one more for the Deaths/Probate board than here anyway.

In theory if intestate laws were invoked than my father inherited 1/6 of the house. A sadly he is no longer compos mentis to tell us whether he had the title formally signed over to him. My mum does not know.

Trying to work out what my father actually owns. Thought the government land registry search will do the trick for my grandparetns former property. So was shocked to see my late grandfather who died decades ago was still listed as the co-owner together with my late grandmother.

Land_Registry

Kirkmain said:

user1977 said:

But you say it's owned by your parents? Aren't you on speaking terms with your parents? It's entirely possible the estate administration was dealt with at the time - like we've said, that doesn't necessarily show up at the Land Registry. And no, the administrator doesn't end up personally owning the estate by default simply by not distributing it to the beneficiaries.

They could do a deed of variation now, yes, though it's too late for that to have any tax-saving consequence (which is often the motivation for doing one).

Might be one more for the Deaths/Probate board than here anyway.

In theory if intestate laws were invoked than my father inherited 1/6 of the house. A sadly he is no longer compos mentis to tell us whether he had the title formally signed over to him. My mum does not know.

Trying to work out what my father actually owns. Thought the government land registry search will do the trick for my grandparetns former property. So was shocked to see my late grandfather who died decades ago was still listed as the co-owner together with my late grandmother.

So you start with the register as is and now work forward from there. The legal ownership passed to your late grandmother following grandfather’s death. So was probate obtained for her and if so by whom? 

The answer to that Q then gets you to the next and so on 

Kirkmain

Land_Registry said:

Kirkmain said:

user1977 said:

But you say it's owned by your parents? Aren't you on speaking terms with your parents? It's entirely possible the estate administration was dealt with at the time - like we've said, that doesn't necessarily show up at the Land Registry. And no, the administrator doesn't end up personally owning the estate by default simply by not distributing it to the beneficiaries.

They could do a deed of variation now, yes, though it's too late for that to have any tax-saving consequence (which is often the motivation for doing one).

Might be one more for the Deaths/Probate board than here anyway.

In theory if intestate laws were invoked than my father inherited 1/6 of the house. A sadly he is no longer compos mentis to tell us whether he had the title formally signed over to him. My mum does not know.

Trying to work out what my father actually owns. Thought the government land registry search will do the trick for my grandparetns former property. So was shocked to see my late grandfather who died decades ago was still listed as the co-owner together with my late grandmother.

So you start with the register as is and now work forward from there. The legal ownership passed to your late grandmother following grandfather’s death. So was probate obtained for her and if so by whom? 

The answer to that Q then gets you to the next and so on 

wow i didn't realise there were organisation reps on this forum.

On the probate and wills website, I paid £1.50 to access her will. She had no will. The grant states she died intestate. My uncle (the one I'm not on good terms with) was made administrator. This is where the trail ends. I have no idea whether anything was ever signed to distribute shares in the house to the other siblings, and I'm not really on speaking terms with them either to ask. Like I have said, my dad no longer has capacity to tell us. My mum has LPA but she was never told whether my dad inherited his parents property. I only assume he did as it would have passed down as per intestate rules. I am not aware of any deed of variation being signed amongst the siblings.

Land_Registry

Kirkmain said:

Land_Registry said:

Kirkmain said:

user1977 said:

But you say it's owned by your parents? Aren't you on speaking terms with your parents? It's entirely possible the estate administration was dealt with at the time - like we've said, that doesn't necessarily show up at the Land Registry. And no, the administrator doesn't end up personally owning the estate by default simply by not distributing it to the beneficiaries.

They could do a deed of variation now, yes, though it's too late for that to have any tax-saving consequence (which is often the motivation for doing one).

Might be one more for the Deaths/Probate board than here anyway.

In theory if intestate laws were invoked than my father inherited 1/6 of the house. A sadly he is no longer compos mentis to tell us whether he had the title formally signed over to him. My mum does not know.

Trying to work out what my father actually owns. Thought the government land registry search will do the trick for my grandparetns former property. So was shocked to see my late grandfather who died decades ago was still listed as the co-owner together with my late grandmother.

So you start with the register as is and now work forward from there. The legal ownership passed to your late grandmother following grandfather’s death. So was probate obtained for her and if so by whom? 

The answer to that Q then gets you to the next and so on 

wow i didn't realise there were organisation reps on this forum.

On the probate and wills website, I paid £1.50 to access her will. She had no will. The grant states she died intestate. My uncle (the one I'm not on good terms with) was made administrator. This is where the trail ends. I have no idea whether anything was ever signed to distribute shares in the house to the other siblings, and I'm not really on speaking terms with them either to ask. Like I have said, my dad no longer has capacity to tell us. My mum has LPA but she was never told whether my dad inherited his parents property. I only assume he did as it would have passed down as per intestate rules. I am not aware of any deed of variation being signed amongst the siblings.

Ok - so no recorded will leads to Letters of Administration being required for the administrator to the deal with her estate, which includes the property. 

We wouldn’t have any record or details re the beneficial shares you mention as it’s the legal ownership we register and that’s only ever dealt with as a whole, it can’t be split into shares. 

So the key from a property perspective is a) what is supposed to have happened to it for example if 6 inheritors/beneficiaries should it be sold and the purchase monies split. Or something else. And b) if that hasn’t happened what should her administrator done in law to deal with her estate? 

Doing nothing is always an option but the key is who should legally be benefiting from the estate/property? The answer to that won’t lie with the land register. That’s all about the law around inheritance and/or what exists to confirm who gets what etc etc 
Clearly the administrator has initial control but they should be dealing with the estate but what that means to them may differ from your own thoughts so please do seek legal advice to understand how the law would view things 

Kirkmain

Land_Registry said:

Kirkmain said:

Land_Registry said:

Kirkmain said:

user1977 said:

But you say it's owned by your parents? Aren't you on speaking terms with your parents? It's entirely possible the estate administration was dealt with at the time - like we've said, that doesn't necessarily show up at the Land Registry. And no, the administrator doesn't end up personally owning the estate by default simply by not distributing it to the beneficiaries.

They could do a deed of variation now, yes, though it's too late for that to have any tax-saving consequence (which is often the motivation for doing one).

Might be one more for the Deaths/Probate board than here anyway.

In theory if intestate laws were invoked than my father inherited 1/6 of the house. A sadly he is no longer compos mentis to tell us whether he had the title formally signed over to him. My mum does not know.

Trying to work out what my father actually owns. Thought the government land registry search will do the trick for my grandparetns former property. So was shocked to see my late grandfather who died decades ago was still listed as the co-owner together with my late grandmother.

So you start with the register as is and now work forward from there. The legal ownership passed to your late grandmother following grandfather’s death. So was probate obtained for her and if so by whom? 

The answer to that Q then gets you to the next and so on 

wow i didn't realise there were organisation reps on this forum.

On the probate and wills website, I paid £1.50 to access her will. She had no will. The grant states she died intestate. My uncle (the one I'm not on good terms with) was made administrator. This is where the trail ends. I have no idea whether anything was ever signed to distribute shares in the house to the other siblings, and I'm not really on speaking terms with them either to ask. Like I have said, my dad no longer has capacity to tell us. My mum has LPA but she was never told whether my dad inherited his parents property. I only assume he did as it would have passed down as per intestate rules. I am not aware of any deed of variation being signed amongst the siblings.

Ok - so no recorded will leads to Letters of Administration being required for the administrator to the deal with her estate, which includes the property. 

We wouldn’t have any record or details re the beneficial shares you mention as it’s the legal ownership we register and that’s only ever dealt with as a whole, it can’t be split into shares. 

So the key from a property perspective is a) what is supposed to have happened to it for example if 6 inheritors/beneficiaries should it be sold and the purchase monies split. Or something else. And b) if that hasn’t happened what should her administrator done in law to deal with her estate? 

Doing nothing is always an option but the key is who should legally be benefiting from the estate/property? The answer to that won’t lie with the land register. That’s all about the law around inheritance and/or what exists to confirm who gets what etc etc 
Clearly the administrator has initial control but they should be dealing with the estate but what that means to them may differ from your own thoughts so please do seek legal advice to understand how the law would view things 

Thanks. I will ask on the probate forum to see if anyone has similar experiences before engaging with a solicitor

Kirkmain

pjs493 said:

As mentioned above there is no requirement to update the Land Registry and in many cases it’s helpful not to if the property needs to be sold in order to liquidate assets in an estate to distribute the estate to beneficiaries. 

For example, my husband died last year owning a house in his sole name that has been rented out for several years. We deliberately never added me to the mortgage so I could retain my first time buyer status. When he died, rather than change the house into my name, I’ve left it in his so that I can sell in and then inherit the proceeds of the sale rather than the property. I’m both the executor and beneficiary of his Will. 

However, in the case of your parents, this really ought to have been sorted by now. For one thing, they risk a massive capital gains tax bill if they change the Land Registry now if the property has increased in value since your grandparents died years ago. For example if they wanted to sell and downsize, it’s going to take a lot of legal leg work to resolve everything because nothing has been updated. Quite simply, they’ve created a massive headache for the future. It could even been seen as a way to avoid inheritance tax, potentially. 

Interesting point about selling without changing the name. Do you know if this still resets the CGT base value or would the estate be liable for CGT? 
ie. Granparents bought their house in 70s for circa £50,000. They've now passed, but it is then sold by the estate for £600,000. Would the estate need to pay CGT on the £550,000 gain before the inheritance is bequeathed to the siblings? Would the property title have to be transferred in order to wash away the CGT and reset base cost to present day? Could be costly error if we sell before my father and his siblings officially take over the property

mybestattempt

If grandma was sole owner when she died, which appears to be the case here, the the capital gain to her estate is the difference between value at the date of her death and the sale proceeds of the sale if the sale takes place before her estate is finalised.

Kirkmain

So death always washes away capital gains, regardless of whether a property is sold by the estate, or sold by those to whom a property was bequeathed?

sheramber

Kirkmain said:

So death always washes away capital gains, regardless of whether a property is sold by the estate, or sold by those to whom a property was bequeathed?

There is no capital gain question when your grandmother inherited the house.

When she died the house became part of her estate. 

A value for the house would be required for probate.

When the house is sold by the estate- not being transferred to beneficiaries- the estate is due to pay CGT on any increase in the value between the probate value and the price achieved  on selling.