Dismissed without warning for a mistake

robatwork

A lot of this depends on the actual mistake.

Your mistake was

1 Print run of 10,000 for customer Kevin Carter's Carts.
"Kevin Carter has syphilis and his carts will kill you" on the prints

2 Print run of 100 for customer Kevin Carter's Carts.
"Kevin Carters Carts"

Massive (I would say gross) difference

Jsuk

elsien said:

LightFlare said:

Jsuk said:

Thanks everyone, I will see what happens, I will delete this thread soon though as I don't really want this in the public domain.

Why - did you not get the advice you came for that might be useful to someone in a similar situation in the future ?

People take time and effort to read/respond and deleting a thread (not that YOU can) is considered very bad form.

Theres been a few in the past that I have tried to help/advise that have had their threads removed- I remember the names and won’t help them in the future (waste my time and effort again)

I actually think deleting  parts of a thread is fair enough if you realise you’ve posted more than you intended and are potentially identifiable to the company concerned. Which I think this would be if they came across it.
It’s different if someone strops off because they don’t like the answers they’ve had and deletes everything on that basis. 

Ok, I understand, I will leave it here but edit some parts out.

Jsuk

robatwork said:

A lot of this depends on the actual mistake.

Your mistake was

1 Print run of 10,000 for customer Kevin Carter's Carts.
"Kevin Carter has syphilis and his carts will kill you" on the prints

2 Print run of 100 for customer Kevin Carter's Carts.
"Kevin Carters Carts"

Massive (I would say gross) difference

The customer had asked for corrected pages (text changes on some headings) I made these corrections but some how sent the previous files without the customers corrections to printer who did not know about the corrections so did not realize my mistake 

NCC1701-A

Different circumstances but a salutary story from today's BBC website about a worker with 20 years employment sacked for a couple of pounds "mistake" (or theft). Tribunal upheld the dismissal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/articles/cw07nep0ek4o

Jsuk

Undervalued said:

Marcon said:

Jsuk said:

I have just had my employment of over 20 to years terminated without notice for "gross misconduct" I made a mistake which cost the company a lot of money (24k), I work for a (medium sized company) printers and the small mistake was printed and delivered on a large scale. I have not had any warnings and have not even been spoken to about a small mistake for well over a year, the investigation stated and aligation of "misconduct" but my termination letter says "gross misconduct" on the companys disciplinary procedure it says "careless work" is misconduct and should have a warning procedure, I feel this is what my mistake must come under. 
Every one I've spoke to says this is NOT "gross misconduct and I should have had a warning. I have appealed. 

Rather depends on how well qualified they are in employment law. Forget posting here and getting lots of random opinions and google links - see an employment solicitor and get some properly informed advice based on a full understanding of all relevant facts. 

Indeed.

Two points to keep in mind....

Company disciplinary procedures are seldom a hard and fast contractual entitlement. They are more a guide how the firm normally deals with such matters. The days of statutory procedures are long gone. Although ACAS publish guidelines the law only requires the employer to make a reasonable (layman's) attempt to conduct a fair process. 

Also keep in mind that even if you achieve a technical win, any compensation for your dismissal can (and probably will) be reduced, possibly even to zero, to take account of your culpability.

Original post....

I have just had my employment of over 20 to years terminated without notice for "gross misconduct" I made a mistake which cost the company a lot of money (24k), I work for a (medium sized company) printers and the small mistake was printed and delivered on a large scale. I have not had any warnings and have not even been spoken to about a small mistake for well over a year, the investigation stated and aligation of "misconduct" but my termination letter says "gross misconduct" on the companys disciplinary procedure it says "careless work" is misconduct and should have a warning procedure, I feel this is what my mistake must come under. 
Every one I've spoke to says this is NOT "gross misconduct and I should have had a warning. I have appealed. 

so they would take compensation money away from me to pay towards my mistake? Part of my issue is I now have "fired for gross misconduct on my record for future employment, a lot of people will think that must be due to violence or something illegal like theft etc.  

Undervalued

Jsuk said:

Undervalued said:

Marcon said:

Jsuk said:

I have just had my employment of over 20 to years terminated without notice for "gross misconduct" I made a mistake which cost the company a lot of money (24k), I work for a (medium sized company) printers and the small mistake was printed and delivered on a large scale. I have not had any warnings and have not even been spoken to about a small mistake for well over a year, the investigation stated and aligation of "misconduct" but my termination letter says "gross misconduct" on the companys disciplinary procedure it says "careless work" is misconduct and should have a warning procedure, I feel this is what my mistake must come under. 
Every one I've spoke to says this is NOT "gross misconduct and I should have had a warning. I have appealed. 

Rather depends on how well qualified they are in employment law. Forget posting here and getting lots of random opinions and google links - see an employment solicitor and get some properly informed advice based on a full understanding of all relevant facts. 

Indeed.

Two points to keep in mind....

Company disciplinary procedures are seldom a hard and fast contractual entitlement. They are more a guide how the firm normally deals with such matters. The days of statutory procedures are long gone. Although ACAS publish guidelines the law only requires the employer to make a reasonable (layman's) attempt to conduct a fair process. 

Also keep in mind that even if you achieve a technical win, any compensation for your dismissal can (and probably will) be reduced, possibly even to zero, to take account of your culpability.

Original post....

I have just had my employment of over 20 to years terminated without notice for "gross misconduct" I made a mistake which cost the company a lot of money (24k), I work for a (medium sized company) printers and the small mistake was printed and delivered on a large scale. I have not had any warnings and have not even been spoken to about a small mistake for well over a year, the investigation stated and aligation of "misconduct" but my termination letter says "gross misconduct" on the companys disciplinary procedure it says "careless work" is misconduct and should have a warning procedure, I feel this is what my mistake must come under. 
Every one I've spoke to says this is NOT "gross misconduct and I should have had a warning. I have appealed. 

so they would take compensation money away from me to pay towards my mistake? Part of my issue is I now have "fired for gross misconduct on my record for future employment, a lot of people will think that must be due to violence or something illegal like theft etc.  

As said in the post I replied to, you need to see a solicitor who specialises in employment law. Make sure you tell them everything and don't be tempted to miss out bits that are "inconvenient". Particularly previous errors that were teated informally.

Meanwhile Google "Polkey deduction", plenty of information on solicitors' websites but a one paragraph summary is as follows....

"A Polkey deduction is a deduction made from a compensatory award in an unfair dismissal case to reflect the chance that although a dismissal was procedurally unfair it would have happened in any case".

It may well be that this should have been treated as misconduct (albeit serious given the amount of money involved) but not gross misconduct. If so you would have a right to be paid for your notice period (12 weeks due to your length of service unless your contract provides more) but it may well still have been perfectly reasonable (legally speaking) to have dismissed you.

To dismiss fairly in law an employer must conduct a fair process, form a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place and dismissal must be "within the range of sanctions a reasonable employer might choose". I'm sorry but based on what you have said here it seems those three tests are met.

As I said earlier, points of procedure are only of limited help in an ET. Depending on the firm's approach they might well agree some kind of settlement rather than fight a case. That might include an agreed neutral reference which may be of more value than cash.

Vectis

I've owned and run businesses in the past in what sounds like a similar field to you where files are being sent to printers, and also how files have to be amended sometimes and resupplied, and I was trying to think how we'd react in the same situation.

£23k is a hell of a big hit for most companies to take but, if it were the first mistake and everything else had been exemplary, then I think we'd possibly just issue a warning and trust that it was a one-off.

But, I think you said that there had been previous mistakes too? For me, I think it would depend on what and when those occurred. If it was looking like there was a bit of a pattern, that it seemed like you weren't concentrating fully anymore and that mistakes were slipping through, even if they were dissimilar ones, then I'd possibly look at it differently.

It's difficult to say because none of us commenting know the full story, but I'd advise you to talk to a professional in employment law just to make sure that correct procedures have been followed. Just in the back of my mind is the notion that sometimes, and it may not be at all relevant here, companies can look to get rid of someone by this means as it's far cheaper than making them redundant. I stress that it may not be relevant, but you would have been in-line for a decent redundancy payout if your employers were looking to shed staff.

So, my advice would be to talk to an employment law solicitor but, and I'll stress this too, don't get dragged into a legal dispute with your ex-employer if, looking at it objectively, there's little chance of success. Solicitors will be happy to take your money and write letters for you etc even if there's not much chance of you winning. But, I think you need a law professional's opinion as to whether your dismissal was legal and proportionate to the mistake you made.

Markc351

Hi Jsuk,
I have been the print trade all my working life and run my own print management company.
Sadly in the print industry a very minor error can lead to very large consequential losses.
I have seen it many times. You say "The customer had asked for corrected pages (text changes on some headings) I made these corrections but some how sent the previous files without the customers corrections to printer who did not know about the corrections so did not realize my mistake"  Was the original artwork supplied by the customer, in which case most printers would ask the customer to amend and resupply, or if you agreed to carry out the corrections for them, in both instances you would PDF proof for customers approval prior to plating.
If not, the companies quality control systems are lacking.
I think the decision to deem this gross misconduct is extremely harsh. Are you a member of a trade union,would  they be able to help?