Neighbour dispute renter v leasehold owner

ThisIsWeird

Anon4tax said:

As far as I’m aware the Landlord, freeholder and leaseholder (who are all the same organisation) are not aware of the situation. I’ve had no communication with them regarding the matter. I would naturally keep it unprovocative normally but my hand is a bit forced with them emailing my estate agent, I don’t think I have much choice 

I'm confused, Anon.

I've assumed from the start that you were dealing with a belligerent tenant, and the LH and FH didn't know what was going on? Is this the case? Who is it that contacted your EA?

Could you confirm, please?

Ah! Wait! I'd misunderstood your, "I think I’m going to lodge a complaint with the Landlord that they are in breach of their lease by causing a nuisance." as you lodging a complaint against the Landlord! Soz.

I wouldn't complicate things - just explain to the LL/FH/LH what has been going on. No 'complaint', just "I tried to sort this minor situation out with the tenant in a helpful manner without bothering other folk, but your tenant has dragged it out and increased his claims to the point it's silly. It therefore needs sorting via the usual way, the FH, your good self.

dannim12345

I used to work at a housing association within repairs and I think if this happened (and it was more than cosmetic) we would prefer to do the work (and maybe charge you). It might take longer for a housing association to carry out but it is what it is. If personal items were damaged the resident would be told to claim on their contents insurance. 

I would just say I will contact your landlord / housing association / the freeholder and see how they prefer to deal with this.  Dont go into all the ins and outs when you contact them, just give the facts. 

ThisIsWeird

dannim12345 said:

I used to work at a housing association within repairs and I think if this happened (and it was more than cosmetic) we would prefer to do the work (and maybe charge you). It might take longer for a housing association to carry out but it is what it is. If personal items were damaged the resident would be told to claim on their contents insurance. 

I would just say I will contact your landlord / housing association / the freeholder and see how they prefer to deal with this.  Dont go into all the ins and outs when you contact them, just give the facts. 

Thanks. It shouldn't cost Anon as they presumably weren't negligent. 
Yes, keep it simple - just report the incident. Anon should be ready to explain further, tho', when the FH asks 'why the delay?'.

GDB2222

propertyrental said:

You are only responsible for the damage if you acted negligently eg knew there was a leak but ignored it.

So my advice here would be to write politely to the occupant below suggesting he

* claim on his contents insurance for any personal possessions damaged and

* request the necessary repairs from his landlord (the HA)

That applies if  there’s a leak during the normal use of the water system. This case is different, as the OP was having renovation work done. It’s possible that this work simply exposed an existing flaw in the pipes under his floor, but it is more likely that the workmen did something wrong. (We don’t know because we don’t even know what work was done.). 

It is therefore possible that the contractor the OP employed was negligent in some way, and the contractor and the op are responsible for reasonable repairs to the flat below. The contractor's insurance should pick up the tab, or failing that the OP's own insurance should cover third party liability. 

GDB2222

ThisIsWeird said:

dannim12345 said:

I used to work at a housing association within repairs and I think if this happened (and it was more than cosmetic) we would prefer to do the work (and maybe charge you). It might take longer for a housing association to carry out but it is what it is. If personal items were damaged the resident would be told to claim on their contents insurance. 

I would just say I will contact your landlord / housing association / the freeholder and see how they prefer to deal with this.  Dont go into all the ins and outs when you contact them, just give the facts. 

Thanks. It shouldn't cost Anon as they presumably weren't negligent. 
Yes, keep it simple - just report the incident. Anon should be ready to explain further, tho', when the FH asks 'why the delay?'.

This happened during renovation work, so it is rather likely the building contractor was negligent. It depends how the leak occurred, but the starting point should be that the contractor takes all reasonable precautions to avoid leaks. 

I’m astonished at the number of people advising that the OP was not vicariously negligent..

ThisIsWeird

GDB2222 said:

This happened during renovation work, so it is rather likely the building contractor was negligent. It depends how the leak occurred, but the starting point should be that the contractor takes all reasonable precautions to avoid leaks. 

I’m astonished at the number of people advising that the OP was not vicariously negligent..

Bejazus, I had to look up that word.

I have always qualified any suggestion that the OP was 'not' negligent, and it's based on the info given to us. I typically use 'seemingly', 'presumably' etc. because I obviously do not know.

 "He claims that a minor leak during my pre-approved renovation caused damage to his property (minor watermarks and a hairline crack running along where the ceiling and wall meet). There’s also no proof that she’s not including damage for previous leaks. The pipe that leaked is under my floorboards, which I don’t own."

The bottom line is, the FH or the owner of the affected flat would have to evidence 'negligence', on the balance of probabilities. 

In any event, the correct move is to inform the FH, since it potentially affects the fabric of the building.

The OP should do this now, and explain - if asked - why the delay, and then be ready to challenge if needed. They have photos of the minor damage, and has always been willing and prepared to put this right from their own pocket. Now't has changed.

At worst, possibly a slapped wrist, and a small decorating bill.

Many many moons ago, I fitted a new kitchen in my bro's flat, 6 floors up. During this, I was woken one morn to the sound of his answering machine going off; "Hi. I'm in the flat below - there's water coming through my ceiling..." Heart-stopping. Turned out that a gulley on the outside had blocked with leaves, and rainwater had overflowed and made its way between the flats' levels, ending up coming through their ceiling. Took many days for my heart to resume normal patterns.

GDB2222

I just wanted to make the point that the OP may have been negligent. For example, he says:

"as soon as the leak was reported to me I got the workman to down tools stop the water via the stop clock"


So, the work was being done without shutting off the water first, which definitely wouldn't sound good in court.

ThisIsWeird

GDB2222 said:

I just wanted to make the point that the OP may have been negligent. For example, he says:
"as soon as the leak was reported to me I got the workman to down tools stop the water via the stop clock"
So, the work was being done without shutting off the water first, which definitely wouldn't sound good in court.

That's quite a leap, GDB, and actually very unlikely. 

Assuming that plumbing work was carried out for the kitchen, as it almost certainly was, then I think we can conclude that the water had been shut off during that work, or else the fitter would have been fitting taps and valves 'live', which would have made him very wet indeed. So, the water supply - at some necessary physical point on the line - was turned off during the plumbing work - it had to be.

Once the plumbing had been completed, the supply would have been turned back on. That's normal. A leak was then notified, and the SC was immediately turned off. That's also normal. 

From what we have been told, the leak occurred from a pipe or fitting under the floor, and there is no suggestion that the fitter was negligent during any of this. If the movement of pipes above the floor caused a dodgy fitting below to leak, then the fitter was still not negligent - it was always a dodgy fitting.

Ooh, we can discuss this for days :-)

I hope this works out ok for Anon, as his seeming only error was the delay in reporting the matter to the FH.

propertyrental

Just tell your EA it's a storm in a teacup and not your responsibility.

Then contact the neighbour as per my earlier suggestion.