First time self assessment and needs a paper form

Notepad_Phil

A friend of mine will need to do a self assessment return for the first time in their life and we have a couple of questions as it's been many years since I've needed to do one.

1) What is the best way to get a paper version of the SA100? The webpage says that you have to phone and ask for one, but I wondered whether my friend would be able to use the HMRC Online Chat functonality as they are a little bit phone-phobic.

2) Will my friend need to get a Unique Taxpayer Reference number before they can send the paper form in, or is that only needed when doing an online return?

Many thanks for your help.

p.s. A paper form is needed as my friend has received a large payment from an Overseas Investment Bond, which requires a SA106 to be filled in, but that is not supported by the HMRC online reporting and my friend does not wish to use one of the 3rd party commercial providers.

Edited to note that they also need a SA107 as they have received a R185 Estates form showing the interest and dividends from the estate of their deceased relative.

Dazed_and_C0nfused

Notepad_Phil said:

A friend of mine will need to do a self assessment return for the first time in their life and we have a couple of questions as it's been many years since I've needed to do one.

1) What is the best way to get a paper version of the SA100? The webpage says that you have to phone and ask for one, but I wondered whether my friend would be able to use the HMRC Online Chat functonality as they are a little bit phone-phobic.

2) Will my friend need to get a Unique Taxpayer Reference number before they can send the paper form in, or is that only needed when doing an online return?

Many thanks for your help.

p.s. A paper form is needed as my friend has received a large payment from an Overseas Investment Bond, which requires a SA106 to be filled in, but that is not supported by the HMRC online reporting and my friend does not wish to use one of the 3rd party commercial providers.

Yes.  They need to register and get a UTR first,

HMRC will not issue a return (or notice to file a return) to someone who doesn't have a UTR.

Ferro

Are you sure that completion of foreign pages cannot be completed online? That option has been available since SA started. I complete the foreign section every year for myself and my clients. 

From HMRC website:

Attach to Your Tax Return: Once you have filled in the SA106 form, you need to attach it to your main Self-Assessment tax return. This can be done by including it with your paper tax return or by filling in the equivalent sections if you're filing online.

Notepad_Phil

Ferro said:

Are you sure that completion of foreign pages cannot be completed online? That option has been available since SA started. I complete the foreign section every year for myself and my clients. 

Hmmm, well the page I was shown did seem to say that you would need to use one of the third party commercial providers as it wasn't supported by the standard HMRC online service. It'll make life much easier if it is - I'll get my friend to recheck.

Ferro

Notepad_Phil said:

Ferro said:

Are you sure that completion of foreign pages cannot be completed online? That option has been available since SA started. I complete the foreign section every year for myself and my clients. 

Hmmm, well the page I was shown did seem to say that you would need to use one of the third party commercial providers as it wasn't supported by the standard HMRC online service. It'll make life much easier if it is - I'll get my friend to recheck.

Are you sure that you are not looking at a non-residence form which cannot indeed be completed online?

Aside from the partnership return the only sections which cannot be completed online are those for non-residence, trusts and ministers of religion. 

Notepad_Phil

Ferro said:

Notepad_Phil said:

Ferro said:

Are you sure that completion of foreign pages cannot be completed online? That option has been available since SA started. I complete the foreign section every year for myself and my clients. 

Hmmm, well the page I was shown did seem to say that you would need to use one of the third party commercial providers as it wasn't supported by the standard HMRC online service. It'll make life much easier if it is - I'll get my friend to recheck.

Are you sure that you are not looking at a non-residence form which cannot indeed be completed online?

Aside from the partnership return the only sections which cannot be completed online are those for non-residence, trusts and ministers of religion. 

Many thanks for your assistance on this,  and indeed that would make sense. I can't remember the exact page, but it was one of the hmrc community pages where someone was asking whether they could submit their sa106 online using the HMRC software, but I have a memory that they also needed to send in a non-residence form, so in that case the answer given that they'd need to do a paper return or use third party software would be correct.

My friend will be pleased that it looks like it's going to be a lot easier than they thought it might be.

Thanks again.

Notepad_Phil

Ferro said:

Notepad_Phil said:

Ferro said:

Are you sure that completion of foreign pages cannot be completed online? That option has been available since SA started. I complete the foreign section every year for myself and my clients. 

Hmmm, well the page I was shown did seem to say that you would need to use one of the third party commercial providers as it wasn't supported by the standard HMRC online service. It'll make life much easier if it is - I'll get my friend to recheck.

Are you sure that you are not looking at a non-residence form which cannot indeed be completed online?

Aside from the partnership return the only sections which cannot be completed online are those for non-residence, trusts and ministers of religion. 

Hi, unfortunately when you say 'trusts' I think you may mean the SA107 'Trusts' form that needs to be filled in when for example you've received a bequest along with a R185 Estates form (i.e. because the estate paid some tax on the dividends and interest that came into the estate post death, and some of that money has been paid to my friend) - is that right?

If so, then unless there's some other way of reporting that information then it looks like my friend will have to do a paper return as they refuse to trust third party software.

I did for a second wonder whether they could simply 'forget' to fill in the SA107 portion and so forget about the smallish rebate they would have been due. My friends income is low enough so that adding on the values from the R185 would not move them anywhere close to being in higher rate territory, but I'd be too worried about the remote chance of being found out to suggest it to my friend.

Notepad_Phil

My friend has now received their UTR and access to the online HMRC self assessment page, but on looking at the 'File a return' page it says that "You cannot use this service if you received" "trust, settlement or estate income", which they have as they have a R185 Estates form showing the taxed interest and dividends that they received as a beneficary from the estate of a deceased relative.

However it goes on to say "If you received income from the estate of a deceased person do not complete the 'Trust etc' pages if" with one of the options being "that income came from a specific estate asset and can be entered elsewhere on your Tax Return, for example, rents from an estate property".

Now to my eyes that makes it sound that the interest and dividends could be added onto my friend's own specific Interest and Dividends sections and all will be okay, does that sound right? I assume there will be boxes there that allow you to enter amounts of taxed interest and taxed dividends.

If it does sound right then I'll get them to phone the hmrc to get confirmation, but I don't want to put them through that hassle if I'm wrong on this.

Many thanks.

SnowMan

I am in a position of having estate R85 income (savings and dividends). And have in previous years completed a self-assessment tax return.

I rang up the HMRC tax helpline last week to check what I needed to do (as I could see there was no easy way to fill in a tax return online because of the R85 income). I was transferred to a tax specialist who seemed to know his stuff. If I had needed to fill in a tax return then I was told by the specialist that I would either need to use commercial software to enter the estate income (it costs about £10 and he could send me a link) or else I would need to do a paper return and fill in the SA107 (trust form) showing the estate income. The option to add the estate savings/dividend interest into the savings/dividends pages of the main online return wasn't given as an option.

However because I don't strictly need to fill in a tax return he then realised he was able to take me out of self-assessment. Note if I had had estate income on which I 'needed to pay tax' then I would have had to have filled in a self assessment return. But the estate R85 income I received had already been taxed at the 20%/8.75% savings/dividend estate rates, so in my case I had overpaid tax and so 'I didn't need to pay tax' on it. 

As a result I don't now have to fill in a tax return and can get a refund of overpaid estate tax income by completing an R40.

So it didn't get to the point of me exploring further whether I could avoid the need to fill in a paper form (or use commercial software) by adding in the estate savings/dividend income to my own savings and dividend income, although I got the impression this this wasn't strictly speaking allowed, by its omission as an available option.

In terms of the requirement to fill in the tax return I wonder if income from outside the UK only requires a tax return to be completed not by its existence but by the need to pay tax on it, but that's a question not an answer. But if your friend has tax to pay on the investment bond then it doesn't really matter here, as a tax return is then required.

Notepad_Phil

Many thanks for your post @SnowMan , that was a good result for you. I think I'll suggest to my friend that they try the online chat to ask what the self assessment page means when it talks about "If you received income from the estate of a deceased person do not complete the 'Trust etc' pages" etc. If they get a 'no' then fair enough and they can at that time ask for a paper form to be sent out.

Notepad_Phil

A quick update. I popped over first thing to see my friend, and given that they do not wish to use third-party software, then it looks like they will have to do a paper return as there isn't anywhere that the already taxed R185 dividends could be added to their online HMRC pages for Self Assessment. The only available UK Dividend boxes are for gross values, so that would mean being taxed again on already taxed income, whereas I think they are due a rebate as they have only a few pounds in dividends in their name.