Landlock nightmare after Split Title error

Grumpy_chap

user1977 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

TinyClanger1973 said:

Herein lies the problem.  Only when we saw the enlarged detailed plans, which the solicitors have and we never saw until recently, does it show a strip running the entire length of the front boundary retained by the farm.  This wouldn't be apparent on the Title Plans either party had.  Nor did the solicitors realise there was a problem, until we pointed it out.  Had this strip been intended to be retained by the farm we would have had to arrange a pedestrian easement for our footbridge, which we had initially raised, but from enquiries it was not deemed necessary as we had direct access to the road.  This was confirmed by both solicitors. 

For the sake of £2k, it is probably not going to be effective to try to claim against the original Solicitors unless they roll over based upon a complaint dealt with internally by the Firm.  Legal action against Solicitors is notoriously difficult and expensive and life is simply too short is the issue is £2k.  

I would say it's still worthwhile - complaints/claims take up a lot of non-chargeable time and unless someone is obviously trying it on, it can be simpler to pay up (especially if that's just writing off the cost of work done, rather than actually paying a third party out of the firm's pocket).

Worth lodging a complaint, but only after the issue is sorted.
For the sake of £2k, the Solicitors may simply pay up or partially pay up.  If they don't, probably not worth that much effort (however much that grates).

Any complaints before the issue is sorted risks delay, more cost and a change of willingness by the other party. None of those outcomes will benefit the OP.

Section62

TinyClanger1973 said:

RHemmings said:

@user1977 has answered your question already. I will just say: count your blessings! This could have been so so sooo much worse. Please send the farmer a really nice Christmas present. 

We agree.  We're very fortunate we get along.  He's quite annoyed because he has no interest in the land and both solicitors had advised we had direct access on to the road which should abut our boundary.  Instead, our boundary now is behind a strip retained by the farm.

Is the blue area on this plan part of the highway, or just a farm access track (which is what it looks like on the plan)?  Or is the highway only the purple area?

If the blue area is highway, then does it have full vehicular access rights, rather than being a public footpath/bridleway or some other classification such as 'restricted byway'?

Gaining the strip user1977 has coloured yellow may not be sufficient if the blue area doesn't have full vehicular access rights (as highway).  And even if the blue area is highway with vehicular rights, you need to confirm that the white strip between the blue and yellow is also part of the highway - i.e. you need to establish the true extent of the highway by checking with the highway authority.

sheramber

If the yellow part is the ransome strip , where is the verge and highway?

Where is the footbridge?

ProDave

I think this problem is deeper than a title split


To me it looks like the farm does not own that strip being discussed so cannot have included it in the sale.

It looks like the only access the farm land has to the public highway is where there is a (presumably paved) spur off the public highway.

user1977

ProDave said:

To me it looks like the farm does not own that strip being discussed so cannot have included it in the sale.

Look again. The yellow strip does form part of the farm's title. It's under the red line in the above image (the title includes the width of the red line).

TinyClanger1973

Section62 said:

TinyClanger1973 said:

RHemmings said:

@user1977 has answered your question already. I will just say: count your blessings! This could have been so so sooo much worse. Please send the farmer a really nice Christmas present. 

We agree.  We're very fortunate we get along.  He's quite annoyed because he has no interest in the land and both solicitors had advised we had direct access on to the road which should abut our boundary.  Instead, our boundary now is behind a strip retained by the farm.

Is the blue area on this plan part of the highway, or just a farm access track (which is what it looks like on the plan)?  Or is the highway only the purple area?

If the blue area is highway, then does it have full vehicular access rights, rather than being a public footpath/bridleway or some other classification such as 'restricted byway'?

Gaining the strip user1977 has coloured yellow may not be sufficient if the blue area doesn't have full vehicular access rights (as highway).  And even if the blue area is highway with vehicular rights, you need to confirm that the white strip between the blue and yellow is also part of the highway - i.e. you need to establish the true extent of the highway by checking with the highway authority.

You're absolutely right. It's complicated and many of the questions you're raising were ones we addressed to our conveyancer.



1) Purple area is a road. 
2) Blue area is a lane/track that accesses the farmhouse, an adjacent property and fields.  The lane is partially a public highway and is also a footpath. Highways have responsibility up to the yellow line, after which it is owned by the farmer.  Originally there was a gate where the yellow line is as the gate posts are still there.
3) The verge is partially the responsibility of Highways or possibly not at all.  It had been originally understood that all the verge was, but now this is uncertain following further communication with Highways.  Consequently, we have raised this with the conveyancer as the land is unregistered 

In discussions with the farmer regarding 3) we've agreed if the land is unregistered and not Highways this will be registered to the farmhouse. With the farmer retaining the verge past the yellow line, which is where we plan to have vehicular access and driveway into our garden. 

Highways responsibilities were confirmed by plans submitted to the farmer when the farmhouse first became vacant.

TinyClanger1973

sheramber said:

If the yellow part is the ransome strip , where is the verge and highway?

Where is the footbridge?

Verge and lane are marked on the plan to the front of the farmhouse and ransom strip.  Footbridge isn't marked on these plans, but is around a 1/3 of the way down in front of the  farmhouse over a ditch in the yellow area. 

TinyClanger1973

user1977 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

TinyClanger1973 said:

Herein lies the problem.  Only when we saw the enlarged detailed plans, which the solicitors have and we never saw until recently, does it show a strip running the entire length of the front boundary retained by the farm.  This wouldn't be apparent on the Title Plans either party had.  Nor did the solicitors realise there was a problem, until we pointed it out.  Had this strip been intended to be retained by the farm we would have had to arrange a pedestrian easement for our footbridge, which we had initially raised, but from enquiries it was not deemed necessary as we had direct access to the road.  This was confirmed by both solicitors. 

For the sake of £2k, it is probably not going to be effective to try to claim against the original Solicitors unless they roll over based upon a complaint dealt with internally by the Firm.  Legal action against Solicitors is notoriously difficult and expensive and life is simply too short is the issue is £2k.  

I would say it's still worthwhile - complaints/claims take up a lot of non-chargeable time and unless someone is obviously trying it on, it can be simpler to pay up (especially if that's just writing off the cost of work done, rather than actually paying a third party out of the firm's pocket).

We've been advised to complain and pursue a compromised nominal fee.  We did suggest a meeting.  We may ask the family friend who's a retired conveyancing solicitor to join us. They know the solicitors in question well and the conveyancer who would have drawn up the plans.

Grumpy_chap

TinyClanger1973 said:

We've been advised to complain and pursue a compromised nominal fee.  We did suggest a meeting.  We may ask the family friend who's a retired conveyancing solicitor to join us. They know the solicitors in question well and the conveyancer who would have drawn up the plans.

Advised by whom?

What fee do you expect to have to meet here?  For a Firm of Solicitors, really £2k is a very low fee for them to do anything.  Depending on the schedule of rates, that is anything from half day to two days maximum of time.  I would say, in the context, that is a nominal fee.

IMO, there is real benefit in keeping the Solicitors and the neighbour onside here to get this all concluded as swiftly as possible.  Any complaint can only add delay. 
Delay = Cost. 
Delay is your enemy
Consider the worst case scenario that the neighbour ceases to be the neighbour and a new owner of the farm seeks to exploit the "ransom strip".  The neighbour may become less favourable if the process drags on and starts to create what they may perceive as "hassle".

Get it sorted and then raise the compliant subsequently when you have less (or nothing) to lose.

TinyClanger1973

Grumpy_chap said:

TinyClanger1973 said:

We've been advised to complain and pursue a compromised nominal fee.  We did suggest a meeting.  We may ask the family friend who's a retired conveyancing solicitor to join us. They know the solicitors in question well and the conveyancer who would have drawn up the plans.

Advised by whom?

What fee do you expect to have to meet here?  For a Firm of Solicitors, really £2k is a very low fee for them to do anything.  Depending on the schedule of rates, that is anything from half day to two days maximum of time.  I would say, in the context, that is a nominal fee.

IMO, there is real benefit in keeping the Solicitors and the neighbour onside here to get this all concluded as swiftly as possible.  Any complaint can only add delay. 
Delay = Cost. 
Delay is your enemy
Consider the worst case scenario that the neighbour ceases to be the neighbour and a new owner of the farm seeks to exploit the "ransom strip".  The neighbour may become less favourable if the process drags on and starts to create what they may perceive as "hassle".

Get it sorted and then raise the compliant subsequently when you have less (or nothing) to lose.

The advice came from the family friend who ran a practice.  He said the transfer form is a 15 min job, at best. Therefore, the fees are excessive especially in light of the circumstances and this is a solicitor error.

Unfortunately, this is not the only issue we've had and therefore, the plans need to be ideally completely reviewed to ensure there aren't further errors.  We'll ask for further advice as obviously this is a difficult situation and certainly one we never expected.  It's not every day you pay for a solicitor to create a ransom strip.