Post CCJ set aside - final hearing preparation

Mega_Maniac

Ok, thanks - yea I read about the N180 but that wasn't something I did and wasn't sure if I missed it or didn't actually need to, so glad to read that it isn't part of the process when setting aside.

A fee would be acceptable if it allowed me to change the date. Are the other side obliged to accept at all? I just can't see how they would accept a delay if it gives them a potential advantage or win in court if I can't attend. 

Mega_Maniac

So - had my hearing and successfully set aside under 13.3. I understand this is common even if 13.2 would be more ideal.

The judge asked the SiP representative to talk to me after the trial to find an amicable solution (she was 'too busy') - he then asked her to call me to come to a solution (she/they did not). I requested and was given their generic legal email address (legal@sipcarparks.co.uk).

I am unsure if it's worth trying to get in touch with SiP to come to this 'amicable solution'?

As the judge saw it my defence under 13.3 rests on 2 things:
That SiP had not provided a picture clearly showing the tariff sign over the pay machine (the car park is demolished, so they can't take new ones... but I guess may have more in archive).
That I paid in the app, and after entering my numberplate paid the requested fee. I did not see any option for 'van' at the time and my vehicle was not automatically recognised from the entered numberplate. Ergo: The app was "confusing".

I am to enter my defence by 4:00pm on October 15th.

I am reading through other threads in the forum and can see @Coupon-mad usually refers to "the two threads below" and "government consultation" - I'm trying to find the source of this so I can understand what I'm looking for, as there don't see to be any "threads below" and I'm unsure if the govt consultation is relevant.

At this point I have a strong preference for just getting this all settled. The costs SiP are claiming are £195 (original fee + something else I can't quite establish + court fee). If it put it to bed without having to do another court date I would be more or less happy to do this. 

I am unsure how well my "defence" would hold up in an actual hearing. I understand the parking companies don't always bother to even turn up, so I may well win in that case - but if I lose am I then subject to another CCJ? I assume I am.

Thanks to all for help provided so far, it has been invaluable and has got me to this stage. 

Coupon-mad

Use the Template Defence. It's at the top of the forum next to the NEWBIES thread; both pinned at the top as Announcements.  My signature tells everyone how to navigate there.

Do the defence anyway.

Sounds like you'd win.

Copy in SIP of course and don't email it to the CNBC because you are dealing with your local court only.

Then a week after sending the defence to the local court and SIP, if you really want to end it, send them an offer of under £100 for them to discontinue and walk away. See where that gets you. They will counter offer.

I get it that these hearings are costing you money. Scum industry.  They need real jobs.

Did you ask the Judge for your application fee to be repaid by SIP?  That's a massive £300-odd dropped ball if that was missed.  Most people get that refunded easily by pointing out that the PPC failed to trace your address properly pre-litigation. Sending a claim to an old DVLA address doesn't cut it.

Mega_Maniac

Got it, thanks.

Just to check: if I were to send in my defence tomorrow, then wait a week - that would be the 13th - or realistically the 14th. Would I expect SiP to counter in the time between the defence deadline and whenever the final court hearing would be?

Yes I did ask for the original fee to be repaid by SiP. The judge did not seem to offer much support to the argument that they failed to properly trace my address. They used 'tracegenie' against the one address they had (My name is not on the public register, so no details existed here) and said they "only use the address from the DVLA held against the vehicle."

In their witness statement to the court before the case they state that "upon searching the defendant vehicle reg on the DVLA website it is clear a logbook has not been issued since Dec 2020... This means the DVLA still have the address as *my old incorrect address*" 

My address has been updated with the DVLA for my driving licence, I have also updated my address on the electoral roll (not the public register, I am not on it) and of course multiple credit agencies have my actual address. It is correct to say SIP should have been able to find this address easily? (their witness statement said it was not "easy" (they put it in quotes) because they had done the above tracegenie and DVLA address search)

I actually rang up the DVLA to change my address after all this, as I could not find my log book. But when they asked for the address they had on file, to verify my identity, the address was a much newer one that I have in fact had access to until very recently.... Is there a way to get records of when my addresses were updated with the DVLA? I couldn't find one online... I'll give them another call on Monday to ask if there isn't a simpler way.

Would the original fee usually be ordered to be paid in the first hearing... or is that still something I can bring up in my new defence? I had assumed as the judgement was set aside under 13.3 I couldn't get fees ordered to be paid by SIP because of the failure to trace address - as this was the argument under 13.2?

Either way, the money is far less important to me than my time, but I would of course prefer to make SIP 'pay' as much as possible, so long as it doesn't damage my own chances of walking away without a further CCJ on my credit file. 

Coupon-mad

The next hearing is weeks/months away.

And you can't get that fee back now. It had to be argued at this hearing and is now gone.

Mega_Maniac

Ok thanks, I did begin to argue it, but I guess I had not brought it up as enough of a point at the start. I had mentioned it, and did begin to argue it again near the end, but the judge just said he was setting aside under 13.3 and it seemed like he wanted the hearing to be over. 

Mega_Maniac

Just writing up my defence, and I was just wondering: Is there any point in including further details about my address changes and SIPs failure to contact me, or is that irrelevant now as my defence has to be under 13.3?
 
I only ask as I am fairly sure they should have found my address even if the only method they use to do so was the DVLA vehicle address - as this was updated before the court date. This essentially means they mislead the judge by claiming it was not updated, but I did not have the info at hand to disprove this. 

But I assume this doesn't matter now as it is not the defence I have been asked for?

Edit: Oh and my partner, who has been through a similar process, said she read that it was best to send in the defence the day before it's due - in order to prevent the parking company having the opportunity to read the defence prior to the deadline. Is this good advice?

Edit: Also just to clarify something of the fee (which coupon-mad says above I cannot reclaim now) 

When the Judge was making his judgement under 13.3 he specifically asked if there were any costs being claimed - to which I said yes and referred to the initial application to set aside, iirc he then said it could be decided in the judgement from the next trial.

Did I misunderstand this, or is this actually possible? I am just thinking it may give me leverage with SIP to agree to drop the case. 

Mega_Maniac

So I'm just looking into how to best structure this defence. 

If I go by the things the judge pointed out - there are no clear pictures to show if the tariff sign was directly above the pay machine, meaning my mistake of paying for the wrong 'class' of ticket was understandable. 

The only problem with this is that SIP could come back with more pictures, or historical Goggle maps/streetview data that does clearly demonstrate where the tariff signs are. As far as I can tell from historical images on Google, there are actually no signs that would have allowed me to see the location code for cars, without also being informed of the second location code for vans.

I expect I got out of my vehicle in a rush, looked at the sign for the location code - saw one and then walked off having not read the whole sign. 

The is the sign:



I'm not sure exactly how I should proceed with this as a defence... It's an easy enough mistake to make, I can see myself reading the bottom line from a relative distance - getting the '88841' location code and assuming it correct. But having been in front of this sign is it at all reasonable to have not approached it and read the rest of it? The app asks you to select your vehicle from "Car, Motorcycle, Electric Motorcycle, HGV" when using this location code, with no option for "Van" and no information saying a different location code should be used for vans. 

My assumption up to now was that there was a location code on the side of the machine that I read, without the further info about vans. But this may be easy to disprove.

KeithP

Mega_Maniac said:

The Sign basically reads:

Car/Motorcycle Paybyphone location code: XXXXX
PRICES
Van/Motorhome Paybyphone location code: YYYYY
PRICES

To pay for your parking online visit www.sipcarparks.com/XXXXX

My assumption up to now was that there was a location code on the side of the machine that I read, without the further info about vans. 

Can you show us pictures of those two signs?

Mega_Maniac

KeithP said:

Mega_Maniac said:

The Sign basically reads:

Car/Motorcycle Paybyphone location code: XXXXX
PRICES
Van/Motorhome Paybyphone location code: YYYYY
PRICES

To pay for your parking online visit www.sipcarparks.com/XXXXX

My assumption up to now was that there was a location code on the side of the machine that I read, without the further info about vans. 

Can you show us pictures of those two signs?

HI Keith - I just updated the above post with an actual picture, it's all on one sign. There was no sign on the side of the machine as far as I can tell on Google street view. I can't 100% disprove my own theory (as you can't see all side of the machine) but SIP may well be able to with further images, and at this stage I am fairly sure there were no other signs with the car/motorcycle location code that did not also have the van location code. 

(fwiw the app is actually confusing - if you put a van location code in you still have to select 'car' as your vehicle, but you can only pay for a whole day at the inflated rate.)

I could also argue that I had previously parked there in a car, and simply used the previous known location code to park, without approaching the signs at all. As it is possible to exit the open air car park from all sides, the signs were therefore inadequate... this doesn't change the fact that I would have therefore read the sign. But it does outline the inadequacy of an app that does not inform the user that there are separate fees to pay if parking in a van. I think the 'confusing app' angle may be the best defence.