Refund for a Duravit Bath

Okell

Hence why I asked what part in the purchase process the visit(s) played...

Jumblebumble

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pinkshoes said:

The fact you have visited the store means this is NOT a distance sale

It really depends, the EU guidance puts it better than I can

https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/f1f42e20-e4a1-4d8b-a1ef-d06acccba34e_en?filename=crd_guidance_en_0_updated.pdf

5.1. Definition of a distance contract

Article 2 defines distance contracts as follows: '(7) ‘distance contract’ means any contract

concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales or serviceprovision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer,

with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including

the time at which the contract is concluded'.

Recital 20 provides further explanations of this concept, including examples of means of

distance communication: 'The definition of distance contract should cover all cases where a

contract is concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance

communication (such as mail order, Internet, telephone or fax) up to and including the time

at which the contract is concluded. That definition should also cover situations where the

consumer visits the business premises merely for the purpose of gathering information about

the goods or services and subsequently negotiates and concludes the contract at a distance.

By contrast, a contract which is negotiated at the business premises of the trader and finally

concluded by means of distance communication should not be considered a distance contract.

Neither should a contract initiated by means of distance communication, but finally concluded

at the business premises of the trader be considered a distance contract. Similarly, the

concept of distance contract should not include reservations made by a consumer through a

means of distance communications to request the provision of a service from a professional,

such as in the case of a consumer phoning to request an appointment with a hairdresser.

[…]'.

In concluding a distance contract, the parties may also use a combination of several

different means of distance communication (e.g. website and phone). The fact that parties

meet each other after concluding the distance contract, typically at the time of delivery or

payment, should not change the classification of a contract as a distance contract. If the

consumer has merely visited the business premises to gather information about the goods or

services, the contract that he subsequently negotiates and concludes with the trader at a

distance should be considered a distance contract. Although simply taking of an appointment

with the trader is not considered a distance contract, a binding reservation made, for example,

by telephone of goods to be collected or services to be received at a certain time is likely to

constitute a distance contract for the purposes of the Directive.

The Directive only applies to distance contracts concluded under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme. For example, if a trader only exceptionally concludes a

contract with a consumer by e-mail or telephone, after being contacted by the consumer, such

a contract should not be considered a distance contract under the Directive.

So going into store, looking at the bath, asking some questions and then phoning up to order would still be a distance contract (assuming the company took phones orders as a general course of business). 

I note that the OP says
The bath was delivered to me on Tuesday 20th February.  I informed Empress that I wanted to return the bath on Thursday 14th March.
Do these time scales exceed the distance regulations timings as if they do it is not relevant how the OP bought the bath

Okell

Jumblebumble said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pinkshoes said:

The fact you have visited the store means this is NOT a distance sale

It really depends, the EU guidance puts it better than I can

https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/f1f42e20-e4a1-4d8b-a1ef-d06acccba34e_en?filename=crd_guidance_en_0_updated.pdf

5.1. Definition of a distance contract

Article 2 defines distance contracts as follows: '(7) ‘distance contract’ means any contract

concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales or serviceprovision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer,

with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including

the time at which the contract is concluded'.

Recital 20 provides further explanations of this concept, including examples of means of

distance communication: 'The definition of distance contract should cover all cases where a

contract is concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance

communication (such as mail order, Internet, telephone or fax) up to and including the time

at which the contract is concluded. That definition should also cover situations where the

consumer visits the business premises merely for the purpose of gathering information about

the goods or services and subsequently negotiates and concludes the contract at a distance.

By contrast, a contract which is negotiated at the business premises of the trader and finally

concluded by means of distance communication should not be considered a distance contract.

Neither should a contract initiated by means of distance communication, but finally concluded

at the business premises of the trader be considered a distance contract. Similarly, the

concept of distance contract should not include reservations made by a consumer through a

means of distance communications to request the provision of a service from a professional,

such as in the case of a consumer phoning to request an appointment with a hairdresser.

[…]'.

In concluding a distance contract, the parties may also use a combination of several

different means of distance communication (e.g. website and phone). The fact that parties

meet each other after concluding the distance contract, typically at the time of delivery or

payment, should not change the classification of a contract as a distance contract. If the

consumer has merely visited the business premises to gather information about the goods or

services, the contract that he subsequently negotiates and concludes with the trader at a

distance should be considered a distance contract. Although simply taking of an appointment

with the trader is not considered a distance contract, a binding reservation made, for example,

by telephone of goods to be collected or services to be received at a certain time is likely to

constitute a distance contract for the purposes of the Directive.

The Directive only applies to distance contracts concluded under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme. For example, if a trader only exceptionally concludes a

contract with a consumer by e-mail or telephone, after being contacted by the consumer, such

a contract should not be considered a distance contract under the Directive.

So going into store, looking at the bath, asking some questions and then phoning up to order would still be a distance contract (assuming the company took phones orders as a general course of business). 

I note that the OP says
The bath was delivered to me on Tuesday 20th February.  I informed Empress that I wanted to return the bath on Thursday 14th March.
Do these time scales exceed the distance regulations timings as if they do it is not relevant how the OP bought the bath

Yes - but I think the point the_lunatic was making was in response to somebody saying the mere fact that the OP had visited the showroom meant it couldn't be a distance sale.

I think the_lunatic was pointing out that that was not necessarily true.  I don't think they were suggesting this was an example of a distance sale itself

As others have said, it's simply a question of what Empress Bathrooms returns policy is.  Nothing to do with Duravit being awkward.


[Edit:  I think I inadvertantly set the distance sale hare running by asking the OP about their visit to the showroom.  That was irrelevant as I hope the rest of my post showed.  I could have expressed it better.  Mea culpa...]

Alderbank

Jumblebumble said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pinkshoes said:

The fact you have visited the store means this is NOT a distance sale

It really depends, the EU guidance puts it better than I can

https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/f1f42e20-e4a1-4d8b-a1ef-d06acccba34e_en?filename=crd_guidance_en_0_updated.pdf

5.1. Definition of a distance contract

Article 2 defines distance contracts as follows: '(7) ‘distance contract’ means any contract

concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales or serviceprovision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer,

with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including

the time at which the contract is concluded'.

Recital 20 provides further explanations of this concept, including examples of means of

distance communication: 'The definition of distance contract should cover all cases where a

contract is concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance

communication (such as mail order, Internet, telephone or fax) up to and including the time

at which the contract is concluded. That definition should also cover situations where the

consumer visits the business premises merely for the purpose of gathering information about

the goods or services and subsequently negotiates and concludes the contract at a distance.

By contrast, a contract which is negotiated at the business premises of the trader and finally

concluded by means of distance communication should not be considered a distance contract.

Neither should a contract initiated by means of distance communication, but finally concluded

at the business premises of the trader be considered a distance contract. Similarly, the

concept of distance contract should not include reservations made by a consumer through a

means of distance communications to request the provision of a service from a professional,

such as in the case of a consumer phoning to request an appointment with a hairdresser.

[…]'.

In concluding a distance contract, the parties may also use a combination of several

different means of distance communication (e.g. website and phone). The fact that parties

meet each other after concluding the distance contract, typically at the time of delivery or

payment, should not change the classification of a contract as a distance contract. If the

consumer has merely visited the business premises to gather information about the goods or

services, the contract that he subsequently negotiates and concludes with the trader at a

distance should be considered a distance contract. Although simply taking of an appointment

with the trader is not considered a distance contract, a binding reservation made, for example,

by telephone of goods to be collected or services to be received at a certain time is likely to

constitute a distance contract for the purposes of the Directive.

The Directive only applies to distance contracts concluded under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme. For example, if a trader only exceptionally concludes a

contract with a consumer by e-mail or telephone, after being contacted by the consumer, such

a contract should not be considered a distance contract under the Directive.

So going into store, looking at the bath, asking some questions and then phoning up to order would still be a distance contract (assuming the company took phones orders as a general course of business). 

I note that the OP says
The bath was delivered to me on Tuesday 20th February.  I informed Empress that I wanted to return the bath on Thursday 14th March.
Do these time scales exceed the distance regulations timings as if they do it is not relevant how the OP bought the bath

It's a fair point but in this specific case I believe they might not exceed the regulations and the OP might have plenty of time.

If the OP has made it clear that he is cancelling under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, the cancellation period (in regulation 30) is about 1 year unless the trader has provided the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

Empress Bathrooms T&Cs for distance purchases are a bit of a mess and look to be very out of date, the most recent reference they make is to EU regulations made in May 2007. Since their online T&Cs predate the CCR regs by some years I suspect they will not have provided the statutory information required.

However only the OP knows exactly what information was actually provided, what format (it needs to be 'durable')  and exactly when.

https://www.empressbathroomsdirect.co.uk/terms-and-conditions

Okell

Alderbank said:

Jumblebumble said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

pinkshoes said:

The fact you have visited the store means this is NOT a distance sale

It really depends, the EU guidance puts it better than I can

https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/f1f42e20-e4a1-4d8b-a1ef-d06acccba34e_en?filename=crd_guidance_en_0_updated.pdf

5.1. Definition of a distance contract

Article 2 defines distance contracts as follows: '(7) ‘distance contract’ means any contract

concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales or serviceprovision scheme without the simultaneous physical presence of the trader and the consumer,

with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance communication up to and including

the time at which the contract is concluded'.

Recital 20 provides further explanations of this concept, including examples of means of

distance communication: 'The definition of distance contract should cover all cases where a

contract is concluded between the trader and the consumer under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme, with the exclusive use of one or more means of distance

communication (such as mail order, Internet, telephone or fax) up to and including the time

at which the contract is concluded. That definition should also cover situations where the

consumer visits the business premises merely for the purpose of gathering information about

the goods or services and subsequently negotiates and concludes the contract at a distance.

By contrast, a contract which is negotiated at the business premises of the trader and finally

concluded by means of distance communication should not be considered a distance contract.

Neither should a contract initiated by means of distance communication, but finally concluded

at the business premises of the trader be considered a distance contract. Similarly, the

concept of distance contract should not include reservations made by a consumer through a

means of distance communications to request the provision of a service from a professional,

such as in the case of a consumer phoning to request an appointment with a hairdresser.

[…]'.

In concluding a distance contract, the parties may also use a combination of several

different means of distance communication (e.g. website and phone). The fact that parties

meet each other after concluding the distance contract, typically at the time of delivery or

payment, should not change the classification of a contract as a distance contract. If the

consumer has merely visited the business premises to gather information about the goods or

services, the contract that he subsequently negotiates and concludes with the trader at a

distance should be considered a distance contract. Although simply taking of an appointment

with the trader is not considered a distance contract, a binding reservation made, for example,

by telephone of goods to be collected or services to be received at a certain time is likely to

constitute a distance contract for the purposes of the Directive.

The Directive only applies to distance contracts concluded under an organised distance sales

or service-provision scheme. For example, if a trader only exceptionally concludes a

contract with a consumer by e-mail or telephone, after being contacted by the consumer, such

a contract should not be considered a distance contract under the Directive.

So going into store, looking at the bath, asking some questions and then phoning up to order would still be a distance contract (assuming the company took phones orders as a general course of business). 

I note that the OP says
The bath was delivered to me on Tuesday 20th February.  I informed Empress that I wanted to return the bath on Thursday 14th March.
Do these time scales exceed the distance regulations timings as if they do it is not relevant how the OP bought the bath

It's a fair point but in this specific case I believe they might not exceed the regulations and the OP might have plenty of time.

If the OP has made it clear that he is cancelling under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, the cancellation period (in regulation 30) is about 1 year unless the trader has provided the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

Empress Bathrooms T&Cs for distance purchases are a bit of a mess and look to be very out of date, the most recent reference they make is to EU regulations made in May 2007. Since their online T&Cs predate the CCR regs by some years I suspect they will not have provided the statutory information required.

However only the OP knows exactly what information was actually provided, what format (it needs to be 'durable')  and exactly when.

https://www.empressbathroomsdirect.co.uk/terms-and-conditions

Fair point.  Those T&Cs misrepresent the cancellation period as only being 7 days...