Dismissed due to gross misconduct, what are my options?

TheDancingPony

In Jan I had a psychotic episode and due to the delusional statements I made while in hospital I was arrested, bailed, and then returned to hospital under section 136 of the mental health act due to lack of capacity. My doctor signed me off sick for a month.

Two weeks later I was asked to attend a meeting regarding this informing me there would be an investigation as my employer was making allegations against me that I didn't inform them of my arrest or that the police took my work laptop, despite the fact I was signed of sick with fluctuating psychotic symptoms during that time.

After the investigation there was a disciplinary hearing where I was dismissed for gross misconduct for not informing them sooner about my arrest (even though it had already been reported to them by a 3rd party) and they also alleged my bail conditions and the investigation were not compatible with my employment with them..

Now notwithstanding the fact I was off sick and not really up to dealing with work issues during that time, the code of conduct they refer to says that you must inform them of charges, convictions and cautions. Nowhere does it mention arrests, obviously there is a huge difference between an arrest and a charge. My role does not require a DBS check and I don't work with vulnerable adults, children or the public, so I thought there was no need to inform them of my arrest based on their policy. In addition to this when I was last arrested for the same offence a couple of years ago, I did inform my manager at some point that I had been arrested, and their was no follow up to that, so they weren't even following their own disciplinary procedure and it just further reinforced my belief that arrests weren't an issue as my manager said "oh it's good you weren't charged with anything" and left it at that.

My union rep has suggested I appeal and has contacted his legal department because the code of conduct when interpreted by a reasonable person doesn't imply that arrests need to be reported and they didn't even follow their own disciplinary procedure.

Given that it seems senior management wants to get rid of me, especially with bringing up the fact I wasn't abiding by the dress code about 6 months ago which is so petty, and I would have to sit near them if I was to resume my role I really don't want to go back to my previous role. Now redeployment to another service is potentially an option and would give me a DB pension and a lot of leave compared to the private sector, if I get charged with anything I could end up in another disciplinary hearing. My employer is desperate to avoid a scandal, if it went to a tribunal it would be a matter of public record and then it would be reported in the local press that "suspected offender was allowed to work in the social care department for one year after telling his employer of an arrest and no DBS checks were performed. So my union rep has said it might be worth trying to negotiate a settlement agreement as in the past my employer had paid people to keep quiet in similar scenarios.

There was obvious collusion between the chair and the investigating officer and witnesses they called, I think they wanted rid oi me because I had too many disability related sick days tbh, so they have effectively conned me out of 6 weeks notice pay, so I would be asking for at least my normal salary from the date I was dismissed to the date we reach an agreement, plus my 6 weeks statutory notice pay.

Does this seem like a reasonable request? There are a number of other blunders my employer had made but it would take too long to explain everything in this post.

If their own policy does not state that arrests need to be reported is  there a possibility of being successful in an employment tribunal case against them?

TheDancingPony

My other concern is my reference, being sacked for gross misconduct would really affect my future employment prospects more than a conviction would, is it possible to negotiate an agreed reference>?

Also will the job centre try to sanction me for a non-workplace incident, even though the decision is being currently appealed?

marcia_

TheDancingPony said:

My other concern is my reference, being sacked for gross misconduct would really affect my future employment prospects more than a conviction would, is it possible to negotiate an agreed reference>?

Also will the job centre try to sanction me for a non-workplace incident, even though the decision is being currently appealed?

 I would get more support from your union and definitely appeal. Probably call acas too. https://www.acas.org.uk/dispute-resolution
make a formal complaint to your employer following their complaints procedure then move to mediation or tribunal if not successful. Following these steps the employer might back down and agree to a clean slate so it doesn't become public, 

 I think you have a good case for disability discrimination because you can not be expected to report in when in a hospital and /or suffering from psychosis. Fact is they knew because someone else told them, who was it that told them? So why the need for a separate call from an extremely sick person. 

 Personally I would not want to go back working for them but you can get it cleaned off your record so it doesn't affect future job prospects. 

fatbelly

I can't comment on how successful it would be but, as you mention tribunal...

It may be the best thing to do tactically to make a claim before the deadline expires

Be aware that you need to have had minimum 2 years employment

And there is a strict time limit for the application of 3 months minus one day from the date the employment ended

https://www.acas.org.uk/dismissals/unfair-dismissal

In the first instance you appeal the decision internally

https://www.acas.org.uk/appealing-a-disciplinary-or-grievance-outcome

Your union should help you with this

TheDancingPony

marcia_ said:

TheDancingPony said:

My other concern is my reference, being sacked for gross misconduct would really affect my future employment prospects more than a conviction would, is it possible to negotiate an agreed reference>?

Also will the job centre try to sanction me for a non-workplace incident, even though the decision is being currently appealed?

 I would get more support from your union and definitely appeal. Probably call acas too.
make a formal complaint to your employer following their complaints procedure then move to mediation or tribunal if not successful. Following these steps the employer might back down and agree to a clean slate so it doesn't become public, 

 I think you have a good case for disability discrimination because you can not be expected to report in when in a hospital and /or suffering from psychosis. Fact is they knew because someone else told them, who was it that told them? So why the need for a separate call from an extremely sick person. 

 Personally I would not want to go back working for them but you can get it cleaned off your record so it doesn't affect future job prospects. 

Thanks. Basically when I was section 136 I saw two psychiatrists and a social worker from the local authority and it was the social worker that informed my employer via the safeguarding route, which I believe had been abused because it is something that doesn't really apply to my role

TheDancingPony

fatbelly said:

I can't comment on how successful it would be but, as you mention tribunal...

It may be the best thing to do tactically to make a claim before the deadline expires

Be aware that you need to have had minimum 2 years employment

And there is a strict time limit for the application of 3 months minus one day from the date the employment ended


In the first instance you appeal the decision internally

I've been employed over 6 years hence the 6 weeks stat notice would normally apply, It was only a few days ago I was dismissed so I seem to have plenty of time to go through the appeal and tribunal process.

NCC1701-A

TheDancingPony said:

In Jan I had a psychotic episode and due to the delusional statements I made while in hospital I was arrested, bailed, and then returned to hospital under section 136 of the mental health act due to lack of capacity. My doctor signed me off sick for a month.

Two weeks later I was asked to attend a meeting regarding this informing me there would be an investigation as my employer was making allegations against me that I didn't inform them of my arrest or that the police took my work laptop, despite the fact I was signed of sick with fluctuating psychotic symptoms during that time.

After the investigation there was a disciplinary hearing where I was dismissed for gross misconduct for not informing them sooner about my arrest (even though it had already been reported to them by a 3rd party) and they also alleged my bail conditions and the investigation were not compatible with my employment with them..

Now notwithstanding the fact I was off sick and not really up to dealing with work issues during that time, the code of conduct they refer to says that you must inform them of charges, convictions and cautions. Nowhere does it mention arrests, obviously there is a huge difference between an arrest and a charge. My role does not require a DBS check and I don't work with vulnerable adults, children or the public, so I thought there was no need to inform them of my arrest based on their policy. In addition to this when I was last arrested for the same offence a couple of years ago, I did inform my manager at some point that I had been arrested, and their was no follow up to that, so they weren't even following their own disciplinary procedure and it just further reinforced my belief that arrests weren't an issue as my manager said "oh it's good you weren't charged with anything" and left it at that.

My union rep has suggested I appeal and has contacted his legal department because the code of conduct when interpreted by a reasonable person doesn't imply that arrests need to be reported and they didn't even follow their own disciplinary procedure.

Given that it seems senior management wants to get rid of me, especially with bringing up the fact I wasn't abiding by the dress code about 6 months ago which is so petty, and I would have to sit near them if I was to resume my role I really don't want to go back to my previous role. Now redeployment to another service is potentially an option and would give me a DB pension and a lot of leave compared to the private sector, if I get charged with anything I could end up in another disciplinary hearing. My employer is desperate to avoid a scandal, if it went to a tribunal it would be a matter of public record and then it would be reported in the local press that "suspected offender was allowed to work in the social care department for one year after telling his employer of an arrest and no DBS checks were performed. So my union rep has said it might be worth trying to negotiate a settlement agreement as in the past my employer had paid people to keep quiet in similar scenarios.

There was obvious collusion between the chair and the investigating officer and witnesses they called, I think they wanted rid oi me because I had too many disability related sick days tbh, so they have effectively conned me out of 6 weeks notice pay, so I would be asking for at least my normal salary from the date I was dismissed to the date we reach an agreement, plus my 6 weeks statutory notice pay.

Does this seem like a reasonable request? There are a number of other blunders my employer had made but it would take too long to explain everything in this post.

If their own policy does not state that arrests need to be reported is  there a possibility of being successful in an employment tribunal case against them?

Section 136 is not about capcity, it is to safeguard you or the public.

you work in social care but your role does not require a DBS? That would be very unusual, even admins require DBS if they might have access to people’s personal information. But you are willing to use that status as a tactic to embarrass your employer?

you don’t mention what you were actually arrested for (violence? Theft? Hate crime?) but you did tell your empoyer the first time. I would suggest a reasonable person would expect you to tell them about the second time too. Your union lawyers may be able to make a case over the technical wording of the policy but empoyment tribunals have a much wider latitude to in interpret what a reasonable empoyer or employee should or should not do. You should also understand that if you do go to a tribunal then it becomes a matter of public record and any future employer can draw their own conclusions about your suitability.

TheDancingPony

NCC1701-A said:

TheDancingPony said:

In Jan I had a psychotic episode and due to the delusional statements I made while in hospital I was arrested, bailed, and then returned to hospital under section 136 of the mental health act due to lack of capacity. My doctor signed me off sick for a month.

Two weeks later I was asked to attend a meeting regarding this informing me there would be an investigation as my employer was making allegations against me that I didn't inform them of my arrest or that the police took my work laptop, despite the fact I was signed of sick with fluctuating psychotic symptoms during that time.

After the investigation there was a disciplinary hearing where I was dismissed for gross misconduct for not informing them sooner about my arrest (even though it had already been reported to them by a 3rd party) and they also alleged my bail conditions and the investigation were not compatible with my employment with them..

Now notwithstanding the fact I was off sick and not really up to dealing with work issues during that time, the code of conduct they refer to says that you must inform them of charges, convictions and cautions. Nowhere does it mention arrests, obviously there is a huge difference between an arrest and a charge. My role does not require a DBS check and I don't work with vulnerable adults, children or the public, so I thought there was no need to inform them of my arrest based on their policy. In addition to this when I was last arrested for the same offence a couple of years ago, I did inform my manager at some point that I had been arrested, and their was no follow up to that, so they weren't even following their own disciplinary procedure and it just further reinforced my belief that arrests weren't an issue as my manager said "oh it's good you weren't charged with anything" and left it at that.

My union rep has suggested I appeal and has contacted his legal department because the code of conduct when interpreted by a reasonable person doesn't imply that arrests need to be reported and they didn't even follow their own disciplinary procedure.

Given that it seems senior management wants to get rid of me, especially with bringing up the fact I wasn't abiding by the dress code about 6 months ago which is so petty, and I would have to sit near them if I was to resume my role I really don't want to go back to my previous role. Now redeployment to another service is potentially an option and would give me a DB pension and a lot of leave compared to the private sector, if I get charged with anything I could end up in another disciplinary hearing. My employer is desperate to avoid a scandal, if it went to a tribunal it would be a matter of public record and then it would be reported in the local press that "suspected offender was allowed to work in the social care department for one year after telling his employer of an arrest and no DBS checks were performed. So my union rep has said it might be worth trying to negotiate a settlement agreement as in the past my employer had paid people to keep quiet in similar scenarios.

There was obvious collusion between the chair and the investigating officer and witnesses they called, I think they wanted rid oi me because I had too many disability related sick days tbh, so they have effectively conned me out of 6 weeks notice pay, so I would be asking for at least my normal salary from the date I was dismissed to the date we reach an agreement, plus my 6 weeks statutory notice pay.

Does this seem like a reasonable request? There are a number of other blunders my employer had made but it would take too long to explain everything in this post.

If their own policy does not state that arrests need to be reported is  there a possibility of being successful in an employment tribunal case against them?

Section 136 is not about capcity, it is to safeguard you or the public.

you work in social care but your role does not require a DBS? That would be very unusual, even admins require DBS if they might have access to people’s personal information. But you are willing to use that status as a tactic to embarrass your employer?

you don’t mention what you were actually arrested for (violence? Theft? Hate crime?) but you did tell your empoyer the first time. I would suggest a reasonable person would expect you to tell them about the second time too. Your union lawyers may be able to make a case over the technical wording of the policy but empoyment tribunals have a much wider latitude to in interpret what a reasonable empoyer or employee should or should not do. You should also understand that if you do go to a tribunal then it becomes a matter of public record and any future employer can draw their own conclusions about your suitability.

My custody log specifically states "detained under section 136 due to lack of capacity".Indeed when I was in hospital I had a deprivation of liberty and this is in the medical evidence I supplied to the panel.

At my local authority, admin staff do not require a DBS check even when they have access to information on vulnerable people.

Last time I mentioned what I was arrested for, the thread got closed as it was deemed off topic, so I'm not going to repeat it, other than to say it was not a violent crime nor one of dishonesty. I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone signed off sick by their doctor with psychotic symptoms to engage in work related conversations.

Yes, I already stated it would be a matter of public record, which seems to be what my employer is terrified of, something that may damage their reputation, that's all they really care about.

NCC1701-A

TheDancingPony said:

NCC1701-A said:

TheDancingPony said:

In Jan I had a psychotic episode and due to the delusional statements I made while in hospital I was arrested, bailed, and then returned to hospital under section 136 of the mental health act due to lack of capacity. My doctor signed me off sick for a month.

Two weeks later I was asked to attend a meeting regarding this informing me there would be an investigation as my employer was making allegations against me that I didn't inform them of my arrest or that the police took my work laptop, despite the fact I was signed of sick with fluctuating psychotic symptoms during that time.

After the investigation there was a disciplinary hearing where I was dismissed for gross misconduct for not informing them sooner about my arrest (even though it had already been reported to them by a 3rd party) and they also alleged my bail conditions and the investigation were not compatible with my employment with them..

Now notwithstanding the fact I was off sick and not really up to dealing with work issues during that time, the code of conduct they refer to says that you must inform them of charges, convictions and cautions. Nowhere does it mention arrests, obviously there is a huge difference between an arrest and a charge. My role does not require a DBS check and I don't work with vulnerable adults, children or the public, so I thought there was no need to inform them of my arrest based on their policy. In addition to this when I was last arrested for the same offence a couple of years ago, I did inform my manager at some point that I had been arrested, and their was no follow up to that, so they weren't even following their own disciplinary procedure and it just further reinforced my belief that arrests weren't an issue as my manager said "oh it's good you weren't charged with anything" and left it at that.

My union rep has suggested I appeal and has contacted his legal department because the code of conduct when interpreted by a reasonable person doesn't imply that arrests need to be reported and they didn't even follow their own disciplinary procedure.

Given that it seems senior management wants to get rid of me, especially with bringing up the fact I wasn't abiding by the dress code about 6 months ago which is so petty, and I would have to sit near them if I was to resume my role I really don't want to go back to my previous role. Now redeployment to another service is potentially an option and would give me a DB pension and a lot of leave compared to the private sector, if I get charged with anything I could end up in another disciplinary hearing. My employer is desperate to avoid a scandal, if it went to a tribunal it would be a matter of public record and then it would be reported in the local press that "suspected offender was allowed to work in the social care department for one year after telling his employer of an arrest and no DBS checks were performed. So my union rep has said it might be worth trying to negotiate a settlement agreement as in the past my employer had paid people to keep quiet in similar scenarios.

There was obvious collusion between the chair and the investigating officer and witnesses they called, I think they wanted rid oi me because I had too many disability related sick days tbh, so they have effectively conned me out of 6 weeks notice pay, so I would be asking for at least my normal salary from the date I was dismissed to the date we reach an agreement, plus my 6 weeks statutory notice pay.

Does this seem like a reasonable request? There are a number of other blunders my employer had made but it would take too long to explain everything in this post.

If their own policy does not state that arrests need to be reported is  there a possibility of being successful in an employment tribunal case against them?

Section 136 is not about capcity, it is to safeguard you or the public.

you work in social care but your role does not require a DBS? That would be very unusual, even admins require DBS if they might have access to people’s personal information. But you are willing to use that status as a tactic to embarrass your employer?

you don’t mention what you were actually arrested for (violence? Theft? Hate crime?) but you did tell your empoyer the first time. I would suggest a reasonable person would expect you to tell them about the second time too. Your union lawyers may be able to make a case over the technical wording of the policy but empoyment tribunals have a much wider latitude to in interpret what a reasonable empoyer or employee should or should not do. You should also understand that if you do go to a tribunal then it becomes a matter of public record and any future employer can draw their own conclusions about your suitability.

My custody log specifically states "detained under section 136 due to lack of capacity".Indeed when I was in hospital I had a deprivation of liberty and this is in the medical evidence I supplied to the panel.

At my local authority, admin staff do not require a DBS check even when they have access to information on vulnerable people.

Last time I mentioned what I was arrested for, the thread got closed as it was deemed off topic, so I'm not going to repeat it, other than to say it was not a violent crime nor one of dishonesty. I don't think it's reasonable to expect someone signed off sick by their doctor with psychotic symptoms to engage in work related conversations.

Yes, I already stated it would be a matter of public record, which seems to be what my employer is terrified of, something that may damage their reputation, that's all they really care about.

For your info, mental capacity act is not the mental health act. https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/mental-capacity-act-2005/capacity/. When you are arrested or sectioned, it is a deprivation of liberty but it can’t be used without consequnce, plenty of cases of police being sued for wrongful arrest or sectioning.

Which local authority is it that doesn’t require a DBS?

My point about public record is a tribunal, even if you win, may affect your success at getting new employment. Your union’s advice about a settlement agreement sounds your best option but would that be fair on a new employer?

You’ve created a new ID for the purposes of this thread?

TheDancingPony

Nah I had an account a long time ago which for suspended.

(Removed by Forum Team) does not require a DBS for access to the adults liquid logic social care system. You can just take a look at their vacancy page. 

TheDancingPony

Why would a settlement agreement be unfair on a new employer? I received commendations for performance so that's not an issue.