protection for sellers

soolin

I suspect this might raise some negative comments , but having read a similar plea on a different forum I thought It was worth raising here.

There appears to be an ebay purge on serial returners, or  buyers claiming an excessive number of INRs at the moment. This is not unusual for ebay, they go years without doing anything then pick a theme and hit loads and loads of users at the same time. Reading the threads here on MSE, on ebay forums and other forums ebay seem to be targeting buyers who have a higher number than usual returns, INR, claims or complaints. I'm sure some of those being warned by ebay are absolutely genuine and just don't spot dodgy sellers, but some buyers who have complained elsewhere  definitely seem to have abused the system. 

The point of this thread is to remind sellers to always use the case system, if a buyer claims an item is SNAD then yes we refund, but always always get them to open a case and refund through that. Even if you are happy to buy them off with a partial refund, get that case open.It won't save you from having to refund, but it is surprising how many buyers will suddenly drop the claim when you are sympathetic and ask them to open a case so you can deal with it properly.

It's the same with an INR, if you have no proof of delivery - don't just cancel the sale or refund- get that case open and refund through that. Obviously if you do have tracking or proof of delivery and didn't upload it at point of despatch- then add it to the case when opened. 

If ebay are going to start protecting sellers from spurious claimers - and reading some business forums I am shocked by the SNAD claims raised against some sellers basically by people hoping the seller will either send a partial refund or just refund to make it go away.

Miser1964

About time too. Buyers have become chancers; I was just reading that the supermarkets are experiencing a spike in claims for 'missing' items in their doorstep deliveries and it's usually the priciest item too, not the bag of carrots.

soolin

Miser1964 said:

About time too. Buyers have become chancers; I was just reading that the supermarkets are experiencing a spike in claims for 'missing' items in their doorstep deliveries and it's usually the priciest item too, not the bag of carrots.

Some of the stories I’m reading are quite shocking, mainly business sellers but I’m sure it translates across to,private sellers as well.

Clothes sellers seem badly hit, a common scenario seems to be to buy a bundle of items for an event or holiday, wear them with tags tucked in if possible but if not just make up a fake claim to return explaining why tags are not present and send seller a message saying all 6 items from the recent order are damaged. Even the wording seems similar ‘I’ve just gone to pack my items for my holiday and noticed that despite all being sold as new  all seem to have stains, unfortunately I did remove the tags from 4 items as I tried to wash out what I thought was a dirty mark from storage, but 2 items show stains but still have tags on. If I open 6 SNAD claims it’s going to cost you 6 lots of return postage , so I’m happy if you would prefer to send me a single pre paid return label and I’ll send them all back for a full refund’. Sellers realising they are going to have to refund  just send a label, thinking they are saving themselves from paying for 6 individual labels, not realising that buyer then never gets these returned marked against them. Going forward they have said they will start insisting buyers open a claim for every single item, yes it will cost the seller more in the first instance, but in the future it may mark these buyers out as abusive. 

In the US it seems that the above scam is prevalent , often referred to as the cruise line scam as buyers want loads of new expensive items for their 10 day cruise, and don’t want to actually pay for them. Some sellers do have slightly more rights in the US and in some states they can protect themselves by insisting that buyer has accepted the item as fully checked and perfect if they remove the tag. Then they attach personalised ‘warning tags’ somewhere obvious, at the waist, or on the front . However it seems even in the US that really only covers sellers in certain states. 

I’m still reading stories here and cannot believe the cheek of some buyers, there’s many that are upset they have warnings as they can’t continually buy items and basically wear or use them for several days and then return as the wear/damage/fit was different to that described on the original listing! Or reading and returning books as the seller said the book was like new, when in fact it arrived with some creases on the DJ .

Kim_13

I thought they already had started insisting on a case being opened for each item, as I had to do when two items I ordered on a buy one get one half price offer never materialised. I had initially messaged the seller (several weeks since ordering, IIRC) advising of the non-arrival and asking for any tracking info they might have, who replied stating that after this long they were likely lost in the post would I like a replacement or refund. One colour was particularly wanted and no other sellers seemed to have it, so I asked for a replacement, making a calendar note to open an eBay case on X day (before I could be timed out of any recourse) if they still hadn’t arrived. Several days later, I receive a message saying that when they went to pack the replacement, they realised there were no more of this colour and would I kindly pick another from this list. I politely declined to do so, explaining that this had been the colour I really wanted and that the second had only been ordered because of the offer, so I would like a refund rather than a changed item. Several more days pass, your refund has been processed and you should receive this within a few days. Fair enough, I know this is down to the card provider despite my misgivings about their slow comms (surely you check more quickly when you have asked a buyer a question?) No refund, they say to wait a few more days. After a few more days, we have sent it, it is in your account, check another card. I don’t know why I even messaged them one more time after that, stating that I only had one card saved with eBay and that I had checked it twice and the money wasn’t there. No response so I had to open the cases at the 11th hour, which did concern me in that there would be two cases on my record when I had only had an issue with one order. I didn’t want a mark against me on account of the worst seller I have ever had the misfortune to deal with, but I wasn’t going to get my money back any other way so noted in both cases that this item had been ordered on a buy one get one half price offer. That eBay refunded me was proof that the seller had been telling porkies about sending one, as if they could see one in progress, they would have said so and closed the case in the seller’s favour. This seller was obviously hoping I didn’t know my eBay rights and to string it out long enough that a case couldn’t be opened.

In another INR, the seller initially asked me to wait a few more days (again it was already 2 weeks) and then message them again if it still hadn’t arrived, which I did. They refunded almost instantly, without requiring me to open a case. A seller who doesn’t insist on a case being opened before refunding has me suspicious that they never sent it in the first place, and didn’t want the eBay defect for admitting they were out of stock or whatever it might be. Otherwise they could just be paying out to an abusive buyer; that they had never sent it would be the only way they had of knowing that I wasn’t trying it on for a free item.

It does seem that they are now of a ‘the customer is always right’ mentality. The clothes example beggars belief. I posted before about a golf club my father had once purchased, to the surprise of some regulars. It was an unfortunate situation where he took it to be shortened, as he knew when he bid on it that it was too long for him. The golf centre, of which he had been a regular customer and thought they could be trusted, decided not to ask him until he went to collect the now shortened club if he knew that it was counterfeit (presumably the golf centre didn’t want to lose the business and knew it extremely unlikely that anyone would knowingly want them to shorten a counterfeit.) Of course he did not and opened a SNAD on the basis that the item was counterfeit and explaining what had happened. The case was closed against him on the basis that the item was no longer in the condition that it had been sent by the seller. Removing tags from clothing is the same thing, but apparently now OK… (and the most clothes aren’t going to have the aggravating factor of being purported to be of a brand that they are not.)

At the time, in 2012, I had come across a piece of law that said something to the effect of if you took actions that you wouldn’t be able to take unless you owned something, you were deemed to have accepted it. So perhaps the outcome was correct under UK law at the time, but eBay seem to like to pick choose which bits of UK law apply. Maybe the outcome would have been different had my father simply stated it was counterfeit and not been so honest about how he’d found out. That or it shows how far eBay have shifted to being in favour of the buyer over the past decade.

soolin

I have an ongoing one at the moment.
Item arrived with buyer over 2 weeks ago, then in the week I got a message saying it had arrived broken. The item isn't a breakable as such but could be damaged if handled very badly. I asked for photos of the item and packaging, apparently their camera is faulty so they cannot provide these. I have no problem with that as not everyone has a smart phone.

Told them to open an SNAD case and I would send a label for the return via ebay. Apparently they can't do that as it is too complicated for them, and they are talking about paying to get the damage repaired .  I suggested it was easier just to return for a full refund as this was an inexpensive item and repairs are not going to be cost effective- but I would like it back as I would still have a use for the item even with the stated damage. 

Basically they want a part refund for repairs to an item they had had delivered over 2 weeks earlier and seem unwilling to return. I am currently awaiting a further response to them re my request that they open an SNAD and return.

There are a few red flags in their feedback left for others , a number of positives saying sellers had been helpful with an issue (I always take that as meaning seller has part refunded or such like) and 2 negs for items arriving broken.

goodfella66

soolin said:

I have an ongoing one at the moment.
Item arrived with buyer over 2 weeks ago, then in the week I got a message saying it had arrived broken. The item isn't a breakable as such but could be damaged if handled very badly. I asked for photos of the item and packaging, apparently their camera is faulty so they cannot provide these. I have no problem with that as not everyone has a smart phone.

Told them to open an SNAD case and I would send a label for the return via ebay. Apparently they can't do that as it is too complicated for them, and they are talking about paying to get the damage repaired .  I suggested it was easier just to return for a full refund as this was an inexpensive item and repairs are not going to be cost effective- but I would like it back as I would still have a use for the item even with the stated damage. 

Basically they want a part refund for repairs to an item they had had delivered over 2 weeks earlier and seem unwilling to return. I am currently awaiting a further response to them re my request that they open an SNAD and return.

There are a few red flags in their feedback left for others , a number of positives saying sellers had been helpful with an issue (I always take that as meaning seller has part refunded or such like) and 2 negs for items arriving broken.

Sounds like a typical scam. Stick to your guns, Soolin.

soolin

goodfella66 said:

soolin said:

I have an ongoing one at the moment.
Item arrived with buyer over 2 weeks ago, then in the week I got a message saying it had arrived broken. The item isn't a breakable as such but could be damaged if handled very badly. I asked for photos of the item and packaging, apparently their camera is faulty so they cannot provide these. I have no problem with that as not everyone has a smart phone.

Told them to open an SNAD case and I would send a label for the return via ebay. Apparently they can't do that as it is too complicated for them, and they are talking about paying to get the damage repaired .  I suggested it was easier just to return for a full refund as this was an inexpensive item and repairs are not going to be cost effective- but I would like it back as I would still have a use for the item even with the stated damage. 

Basically they want a part refund for repairs to an item they had had delivered over 2 weeks earlier and seem unwilling to return. I am currently awaiting a further response to them re my request that they open an SNAD and return.

There are a few red flags in their feedback left for others , a number of positives saying sellers had been helpful with an issue (I always take that as meaning seller has part refunded or such like) and 2 negs for items arriving broken.

Sounds like a typical scam. Stick to your guns, Soolin.

I do, I am prepared to lose the return postage rather than give in and do a partial , yes I’ll be out of pocket for both sets of postage, but I always think it might just stop someone thinking this is a great way of getting discounts. Also if they are genuine, then I am treating them fairly as on return they would get a full refund, and would not be a penny out of pocket. 

forgotmyname

A nice reply to their feedback sorry your unbreakable item is broken but why did you not return it?

One to report to ebay I think.

soolin

forgotmyname said:

A nice reply to their feedback sorry your unbreakable item is broken but why did you not return it?

One to report to ebay I think.

If buyer does leave poor feedback, and no feedback or response to my last email yet, depending on what they say I reckon I stand a good chance of getting it removed as I asked them twice to open an SNAD and they didn’t want to. 

soolin

Update : there was no further contact from buyer and I got left a neutral . I immediately sent an appeal to ebay explaining that I asked buyer on more than one occasion  to use the ebay SNAD system to return for a full refund, and buyer declined to do so. I argued that buyer therefore did not use the dispute procedure and feedback should be removed.

Within 10 minutes I got this response from ebay

Hello xxx

Thanks for letting us know about the negative Feedback you received from xxxx
 on 2024-04-09
 for xxxxxxxxx

We’re happy to share that we’re removing any content or ratings left by the buyer since it goes against our Seller protections policy and/or our Feedback policies. It may take up to 72 hours for everything to update on your Feedback profile page.

If you have any questions or concerns, just get in touch. We’re here to help.

We’re glad you’re part of our community.

Thanks,

eBay

~~~

Just checked and the neutral has already disappeared. 

ANNA

A similar matter, which is becoming more frequent on my private seller account, is buying, paying and then putting in a cancellation request. I'm selling my surplus furniture, but buyers claim they didn't see it was "collection only". It is annoying, time-consuming, costs me 30p each time and I can't relist immediately but need to wait for my next free listings weekend.