TRV‘s

Auti

Hello, me again. I have fettled the TRV‘s and used some copper slip but for a few of them they have come to the end of their useful life so I am going to get them all replaced (8) and 2 radiators that also need replacing as very old.  

Had one plumber round to quote and it was obvious to me that a connection had not been made as he said things like asking me if I wanted a TRV on the radiator that is not meant to have a TRV on and then when asked about which TRV‘s he would be fitting said a make I had never heard of (ELC Entity) and said that Honeywell are rubbish and been bought out and said only fits ELC (this as he was going out the door). So not for me I think. I was looking at Honeywell Valencia or what do you suggest. My new programmable room thermostat is working ok and that is EPH wireless one. Thank you 

 
 
 

ThisIsWeird

Always get more than one quote in any case, and - yes - trust your gut to a largish degree too.
Although, if someone is terse, but otherwise comes with a good repute and a keen price, then grit yer teeth
Haven't heard of ELC, but there should be plenty info out there, I'd have thought. I'll have a look.

No, you don't want one in the room-stat location, unless there's a chance you may move the stat somewhere else at some point? You can have a TRV in the 'stat location, but should leave its head off/kept fully open, so the stat does the temp monitoring.

Two suggestions; fit oversized rads for your replacements if you can, especially if they are in the main 'living' areas. These should output a similar temp as current, when run on slightly cooler boiler water = more efficiency. And, fit a magnetic filter to the return of your boiler if you don't already have one. Quick to do whilst drained down, and should help to clean your system.

Auti

@ThisIsWeird - have booked 2 more plumbers for quotes who are gas safe too (so can deal with anything untoward) also on council run trusted traders. For ELC could not find much at all and thanks for confirming re non trv radiator. One reply from new plumber who mentioned he will do radiator calculations so that I get correct radiators when he comes to see job (sounds more as I wish). Yes will also request magnetic filter - does the system have to be cleaned first? It is old pipework and to be fair as boiler running ok don‘t really want to upset it by aggressive cleaning, certainly not powerflush! Thanks for your help will update

FreeBear

Auti said: One reply from new plumber who mentioned he will do radiator calculations so that I get correct radiators when he comes to see job (sounds more as I wish). Yes will also request magnetic filter - does the system have to be cleaned first? It is old pipework and to be fair as boiler running ok don‘t really want to upset it by aggressive cleaning, certainly not powerflush! Thanks for your help will update

This new plumber should do the calculation based on a ΔT 50°C (a flow temperature of 70°C) - Ask him to run the numbers based on a ΔT 30°C (50°C flow temperature). This will give you some idea of how much bigger the radiators would need to be when running at lower flow temperatures (assuming your current boiler can be set to run at a lower temp). If you go for the bigger radiators, it puts you in a better position for the day a heat pump is the only option to replace a gas boiler - But lower flow temperatures or a heat pump may require larger diameter pipes on some of the plumbing.

If you are changing most/all the radiators, most of the sludge will have collected in the bottom of each one. Very little sludge should be left in the pipework or boiler, so a power flush shouldn't be needed. Wouldn't hurt to run some chemical cleaner through the system after the new radiators have been fitted. The magnetic filter will take care of any traces of sludge left.

ThisIsWeird

I'm struggling with the Entity make too, other than the odd one on eBay! No idea about them. Can they really be that much cheaper than the more established makes? And, if they are, is there a 'reason'!

Absolutely ask each other plumber what make they recommend, and - if you want - also drop into the conversation, "What about the ELC Entity I've heard about?". They may reply, "Lol - you've had Kev round for a quote, haven't you? Man, what's he like!"

You don't actually need a GasSafe for this, as the boiler itself won't be touched, other than for possibly topping up the water, so there may be a good ol' time-served plumber out there who'd good a neat job and for less. But, as always, try and use personal recommendations. You'll likely find that most 'plumbers' are also GS, so I'm not at all suggesting to avoid GS, just to keep your options open.

No, the Mag Filter is not at all 'harsh', as it simply collects any sludge that's already circulating in your system. From your description - an older system, with some rusty(?) rads - it's almost certain that there will be sludge gathered in the bottoms of the rads and in some pipework. The Mag Filter won't 'clean' this on its own, but will help to capture any that gets afloat, before it hits the boiler. Your call - it just makes sense to me. It'll be around £120-150, I guess.

You will have new inhibitor added in any case, so hopefully any corrosion that has taken place will now stop.

When the time comes for a new boiler, then your system will need to be properly cleaned...

See what the new folks say. When calculating for the new rads, ask the cove if he should over-size for a lower boiler temp, or a future ASHP or similar. See what he says. He shouldn't be dismissive of this.

CH systems are changing, although gas is bound to still be with us for a long time. But all the renewable heating sources are all heading one way - down! Ie, in delivery temperature. To get the 'same' heat out with a lower water temp, you need a larger emitter - a 'bigger' rad. Eg, adding fins when there weren't any. Just something to ask about.

In which rooms are the new rads going?

Which room is your Stat in, and is there any chance this will change?

Auti

@ThisIsWeird @FreeBear, thank you both. 

New rads in kitchen diner and child bedroom. Programmable room thermostat is currently in hall but it is wireless and has a stand so I can take it with me room to room if I so want. I have it programmed to change temps as I want throughout day and times and so far (taking into account the TRV‘s being silly) it is making my house feel nice - it replaced a rotary 30yr old room thermostat.

Yes I am  conscious of the heat pump coming but want to delay as long as possible as Victorian (large) terrace with uncertain place to put pump outside due to space/noise etc (conservation area) also insulation/ building regs/cost. 

Mag filter will be requested as I have been thinking about one for a while and the proper clean can be when a new system installed - I think pipework will need to be replaced too due to age and likely size. 

 Have had 2 other radiators changed a year or so ago as part of bathroom change (plumber booked up for months so no space for me) and no red flags raised about how dirty rads were - did mention that a magnetic filter would be a good idea in the future but no rush. 

 Whilst I don‘t want to pay over the odds for the work to be done I want it to be professionally and carefully done so that I am confident it is right if that makes sense. So I understand that it may be more expensive though I have a figure in my head that I think it should be around

Thanks for all the info so that I can ask what I need to ask and, more importantly, understand the responses given.

FreeBear

ThisIsWeird said: I'm struggling with the Entity make too, other than the odd one on eBay! No idea about them. Can they really be that much cheaper than the more established makes? And, if they are, is there a 'reason'!

Looked up those ebay listings - Priced between £10 to £18. Or go to Screwfix and get a Drayton for £13.98.

At least with Screwfix, they have a pretty good return policy, and you can get spare heads for Drayton.

Oh, and Honeywell have not been taken over by anyone this side of the millennium. However, the heating controls division was spun off as a separate entity in 2018 under the Resideo name. Still a player in the market and not likely to disappear anytime soon (unlike any off brand product).

ThisIsWeird

Auti said:

@ThisIsWeird @FreeBear, thank you both.
New rads in kitchen diner and child bedroom. Programmable room thermostat is currently in hall but it is wireless and has a stand so I can take it with me room to room if I so want. I have it programmed to change temps as I want throughout day and times and so far (taking into account the TRV‘s being silly) it is making my house feel nice - it replaced a rotary 30yr old room thermostat.
Yes I am  conscious of the heat pump coming but want to delay as long as possible as Victorian (large) terrace with uncertain place to put pump outside due to space/noise etc (conservation area) also insulation/ building regs/cost.
Mag filter will be requested as I have been thinking about one for a while and the proper clean can be when a new system installed - I think pipework will need to be replaced too due to age and likely size.
 Have had 2 other radiators changed a year or so ago as part of bathroom change (plumber booked up for months so no space for me) and no red flags raised about how dirty rads were - did mention that a magnetic filter would be a good idea in the future but no rush.
 Whilst I don‘t want to pay over the odds for the work to be done I want it to be professionally and carefully done so that I am confident it is right if that makes sense. So I understand that it may be more expensive though I have a figure in my head that I think it should be around
Thanks for all the info so that I can ask what I need to ask and, more importantly, understand the responses given.

You're welcome.

You may wish to move your room stat to the main living area, as that's the space you'd want the most accurate heating, and this would also allow the heating to be turned off when that desired level has been achieved. Yes, this would also turn off the rest of the house, but hey!

With the 'stat in the hallway - the traditional location - you'd likely find it would have to be set to be running almost constantly 'on' so that the rest of the house - inc the sitting room - is provided for. It would be quite annoying if the sitting room became cool just because the hallway decided it's fine.

So, if there's any chance you will be moving the 'stat around, I'd suggest you fit TRVs to all the rads. Then, simply open up the 'stat room's TRV to '5' - effectively always on.

Your call on what size rads to fit. If that were my long-term hoosie, I would be looking at oversizing each rad as and when they need replacing; the additional cost won't be that much (certainly not compared to redoing them later), and you will be steadily future-proofing. Even if you come to sell, I think pointing out what you've been doing with the rad sizes should go down well with any potential buyer; the efficiency of a house's CH system can only be an increasingly important matter?

How do you currently control your bedroom heating? Do you run upstairs at 8pm to open up the TRVs? And then shut them back down after you depart in the morn? Or do you - gasp - leave them on all the time? If the latter, then 'consider' Smart TRV heads at some point :-) These are dropping in price, and give full individual control over each rad. They'd replace the existing heads. Just a thought, that's all...

Albermarle

Yes I am  conscious of the heat pump coming but want to delay as long as possible as Victorian (large) terrace with uncertain place to put pump outside due to space/noise etc (conservation area) also insulation/ building regs/cost. 

Just to confirm a point already made.

Even with a gas boiler, it will run more efficiently and use less gas, when the boiler flow temperature is lower.

The larger the radiators then the lower this temperature can go down, without affecting the heating of the house. ( which is why larger radiators are usually needed with a ASHP) 

One caveat being that if it is not a combi boiler, then you should not turn the boiler temperature down too far, as your hot water will not get hot enough.

FreeBear

Albermarle said: One caveat being that if it is not a combi boiler, then you should not turn the boiler temperature down too far, as your hot water will not get hot enough.

With a system or heat only boiler, hot water should take priority and boost the flow temperature accordingly.

Albermarle

FreeBear said:

Albermarle said: One caveat being that if it is not a combi boiler, then you should not turn the boiler temperature down too far, as your hot water will not get hot enough.

With a system or heat only boiler, hot water should take priority and boost the flow temperature accordingly.

I did not know that. I am pretty sure when I turn the boiler ( system)  flow temperature down, the hot water does not seem quite so hot. However I have never done a scientific test.