Pension Advice for ex-pats rtn to UK

xylophone

xylophone - I'm living in UK, have been here since 2007, I reach pension age next month.

What exactly will your SP amount be?

You were resident in UK in 2016 - your "starting amount" for NSP was the HIGHER of


NI QY (max 30)/30 x Full Basic State Pension + (Additional State Pension - (if applicable) Deduction for Contracting Out).


(NI QY (max 35)/35 x Full NSP) - (If applicable) Contracted Out Pension Equivalent.


If the "starting amount" was under a full NSP, then QY from 6/4/16 to the last full tax  year before the one in which you reached SPA could improve it up to (but not in excess of) a full NSP.


You mention Pension Credit, but this will only be payable if your total assessable  income  is under the relevant amount.

See https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs48_pension_credit_fcs.pdf


It would appear to come down  as to how your NZ years may contribute towards your UK pension.


See https://www.gov.uk/guidance/state-pension-if-youve-lived-in-australia-canada-or-new-zealand

And it is clear that the International Pension Centre has the final say in the calculation.

If you didn't receive New Zealand Superannuation or Sole Parent Support for widows prior to leaving New Zealand, the rate you are paid for United Kingdom benefits and pensions depends on contributions you made to the National Insurance Scheme and time resided in New Zealand.

If you received New Zealand Superannuation or Sole Parent Support for widows prior to leaving New Zealand, you may receive the full standard rate of the United Kingdom State Pension or Widow's Allowance/Basic Widow's Pension.

In both cases, the International Pension Centre decides how much will be paid.

I am not sure about Pink's interpretation of the legislation 

 (shall be treated as if he [...] had paid a Class 3 contribution [...] for each week during which he was resident in New Zealand.) as 

meaning that those NZ contributions can be treated as though they were exactly equivalent to those  NZ contributions for all those years having been made in the UK.

What if only as many as would satisfy the minimum years rule (10) count? This seems to be the consensus in the link supplied by Marcon.

pinnks

The quote is from the legislation and the bolding was mine.  It does seem to give an odd result, but so, also, does paragraph (2) for a person who was receiving a NZ pension before they left.  Why in those circumstances should they be treated as being entitled to a full basic pension in the UK, based on the old rules?  How would you interpret the legislation if not using a plain reading of it in English? 

The decision is of course for HMRC in terms of the Class 3 point and for DWP in terms of how the transition provisions will apply and how the post 2015/16 years will be be dealt with but the whole thing is not structured in any shape or form like other agreements I have read (EC 883/2004 for the EU aggregation/pro-rata or the USA/UK agreement to mention 2). 

xylophone

Why in those circumstances should they be treated as being entitled to a full basic pension in the UK, based on the old rules?  

I honestly don't know.

We don't know on what basis the OP has  been refused entitlement.

Should he choose to return to NZ

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/pensions/travelling-or-moving/social-security-agreements/uk-pensions-paid-in-nz-faqs.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8EQreYHSII

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4eAHVLLwf8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7BhtTW_aZk

pinnks

This link is interesting - it's all about the change in regulations to allow people who had lived in AUS, NZ or Canada to move around the EU and still benefit from the Social Security agreements between the UK and those countries (the regulations that have been unwound post Brexit). The Social Security (Application of Reciprocal Agreements with Australia, Canada and New Zealand) (EEA States and Switzerland) Regulations 2015 (legislation.gov.uk)

The bit to look at is the policy background in para 7.1:

"The pension schemes in Australia, New Zealand and Canada are essentially residence-based schemes. The UK’s social security agreements with those countries allow for periods of residence in those countries to be treated as if they were UK national insurance contributions for both state pension and survivors’ benefits. The UK will take those qualifying periods of residence in the ANZAC countries into consideration when awarding UK state pension. Under the agreements, a UK pension is enhanced if the individual meets the residence condition in the UK when they apply, and the enhanced part of the UK pension is only payable while the claimant resides in the UK. Once the person ceases to be permanently resident in the UK, the ANZAC enhanced portion is no longer payable, only the UK portion is paid. In free movement terms this results in a person moving to an EEA country or Switzerland being treated differently from someone resident in the UK"

Helps explain why the agreement with NZ is so different to others, like the EU rules...

Would be interesting to hear from OP what DWP said when denying his claim...

xylophone

Would be interesting to hear from OP what DWP said when denying his claim...

I had another thought.

The UK will take those qualifying periods of residence in the ANZAC countries into consideration when awarding UK state pension. 

https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/eligibility/seniors/nz-super-and-veterans-pension-residency-changes-2024.html#:~:text=Currently, to get NZ Super,home in New Zealand, and

Currently, to get NZ Super or Veteran's Pension, you must have lived in NZ for at least 10 years since you turned 20. The 10 or more years must include 5 years since you turned 50.

The OP was born in 1958, went to NZ when he was around thirty but came back to the UK when he was around 50.

Could the reason for the DWP's stance be that he did not spend 5 post age 50 years in NZ?

pinnks

The reasons could be many but the fact is that the agreement says the each week of residence is treated as giving a week of Class 3, so the NZ rules on 5 and 10 etc years should be irrelevant.  I am sure OP will update the thread in due course.
 

Ex_pat123

xylophone said:

xylophone - I'm living in UK, have been here since 2007, I reach pension age next month.

What exactly will your SP amount be?


You mention Pension Credit, but this will only be payable if your total assessable  income  is under the relevant amount.

It would appear to come down  as to how your NZ years may contribute towards your UK pension.

And it is clear that the International Pension Centre has the final say in the calculation.

If you didn't receive New Zealand Superannuation or Sole Parent Support for widows prior to leaving New Zealand, the rate you are paid for United Kingdom benefits and pensions depends on contributions you made to the National Insurance Scheme and time resided in New Zealand.

In both cases, the International Pension Centre decides how much will be paid.

I have been quoted a SP of approx £133, there currently is no other assessable income,

I struggle to comprehend how time spent in NZ contributes towards UK NI, I've read it only counts towards 10 years to enable a person to claim basic state pension, others tell me different, hence my post here. 

I didn't / wasn't claiming any pension when I left NZ. You mention the International Pension Centre has the final say, I was wondering what the legislation states, or is this a discretionary decision?  Because what I have read both here and elsewhere, I am non-the-wiser.

[quote]We don't know on what basis the OP has  been refused entitlement.[/quote]

The initial response from DWP was made in about 4 days, suffice to say I am confident the person who made the decision gave scant regard to the dates of time spent overseas which I supplied, hence my appeal, which I am still waiting on the outcome of.

Thanks pinnks for the policy info para 7.1:

I'll quote that to them, if needed.

[quote]Could the reason for the DWP's stance be that he did not spend 5 post age 50 years in NZ?[/quote]

I didn't wish to complicate the issue, but I moved to Australia in 2002 for 5 years, before relocating to the UK in 2007.  Any social security bilateral agreements with Australia don't count after 2002, which is why I didn't mention it.

Thanks for those YT links, one of the reasons I wanted to avoid / reduce the reliance on Pension Credits, is that I would like to keep open the option of relocating back to NZ in the future, obviously any Pension Credit would not be paid, and now I see from para 7.1: quoted above, IF my state pension is boosted, I would lose this if I moved back to NZ, oh man, it literally makes you want to bang your head against the wall.

There is a lot of good information supplied, so thank you, I was told by the DWP when I recently chased this, a decision will be forthcoming in approx two weeks, I'll update the thread accordingly.

pinnks

The legislation DWP would use in this instance is actually the bilateral agreement I posted in my first post The Social Security (New Zealand) Order 1983 (legislation.gov.uk), which is where the mention is of time spend in NZ being treated as Class 3 contributions. See Article 9 of the Schedule.

Ex_pat123

Yes, I'm just going through it all now. I think the DWP were lazy or incompetent in coming up with the monetary figure which they sent me, anyway fingers crossed. 

pinnks

Have a read of their Decision Makers' Guide(s).  They are not that easy to follow but this one Part 5 - JSA to Retirement Pension (publishing.service.gov.uk) seems to suggest that one does look at periods of residence and that the usual pro-rata rules in other agreements are not applicable.  Have a look at paragraph 076140 and the example in 076141 using Canada. 

The NZ and no pro-rata issue is in DMG Chapter 07 - Part 01: Common Subjects 070000 - 071699 (publishing.service.gov.uk) at 070592 and 070593 (RP = Retirement Pension and now, new State Pension)

Hope you like cryptic crosswords, lol