Nationwide take over of Virgin Money

[Deleted User]

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Did any of them pay you £100 last year for using their services without advising beforehand that they were going to do so?

That one has been done to death on other threads already - you probably won't agree, but some of us think that approach to distributing profit is the antithesis of how a mutual should work.

WillPS said:

Did/do any of them offer an 8% interest saver?

Monmouthshire BS.  And they outdid Nationwide by paying 8% on £300/month compared to £200/month for NW.  Monmouthshire also launched their product before Nationwide.

And Saffron BS offered 9% to 'loyalty' members, albeit on only £50/month.

@Rob5342 was asking for advantages to banking with a mutual. MonBS and Saffron BS were, last time I checked, mutuals, no?

Yes, they are mutuals as well.

I think Rob5342 was asking the question "Does being a muutal have any practical benefit though? I had a current account with them..." in relation to Nationwide specifically, because he was quoting and replying to my point "Nationwide is meant to be a mutual and being a mutual is supposed to bring benefits to members".  I could be wrong though, and perhaps Rob5342 could clarify?

The point though is Nationwide is not offering something better than another mutual does, even though it is much bigger and should be able to leverage economies of scale.

Nationwide operates akin to a standard commercial bank. However, it doesn't have operate like a standard PLC with shareholders able to pushback about things like CEO pay or the wasteful member payment in 2023. It's products aren't meaningfully superior than PLC peers either. 

[Deleted User]

Zanderman said:

ircE said:

Nationwide's app is not that bad, although I say that as a Co-operative Bank sufferer.

So first Coventry BS goes for Co-op Bank, now Nationwide BS goes for Virgin. What next, Yorkshire BS to go for TSB? Skipton BS to go for Shawbrook? Why the sudden interest from Building Societies in challenger banks?

I wouldn't describe the Coop (founded 1872), or TSB (founded 1810) as 'challenger banks'. Small, or medium sized perhaps, but not 'challenger banks' in the sense of new kids on the block trying to shake things up. Not like Metro, or Starling, or Monzo.

Even Virgin Money is, in its current incarnation, quite old and well-established as much of its banking business comprises the well-established (and frequent in the north of the UK) Yorkshire Bank (founded 1859)/Clydesdale Bank (1838) which it took over a couple of years ago. 

VM didn't take over Clydesdale - it was the other way round.

The current TSB has very tenuous linkages with the original one ; the current entity was LloydsTSB Scotland with some semi-random LloydsTSB (England and Wales) customers bolted on to make it a GB wide bank.

They are challengers in terms of not being part of the big traditional banking groups.

Rob5342

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Did any of them pay you £100 last year for using their services without advising beforehand that they were going to do so?

That one has been done to death on other threads already - you probably won't agree, but some of us think that approach to distributing profit is the antithesis of how a mutual should work.

WillPS said:

Did/do any of them offer an 8% interest saver?

Monmouthshire BS.  And they outdid Nationwide by paying 8% on £300/month compared to £200/month for NW.  Monmouthshire also launched their product before Nationwide.

And Saffron BS offered 9% to 'loyalty' members, albeit on only £50/month.

@Rob5342 was asking for advantages to banking with a mutual. MonBS and Saffron BS were, last time I checked, mutuals, no?

Yes, they are mutuals as well.

I think Rob5342 was asking the question "Does being a muutal have any practical benefit though? I had a current account with them..." in relation to Nationwide specifically, because he was quoting and replying to my point "Nationwide is meant to be a mutual and being a mutual is supposed to bring benefits to members".  I could be wrong though, and perhaps Rob5342 could clarify?

Yes I meant what benefit does Nationwide being a mutual actually bring in practice.

Nobody else has given me money without announcing it first, but I've got £1000 from switching bonuses, including £150 for switching from Nationwide to Halifax so by leaving them I'm better off than if I'd stayed with them.

I've never had an 8% saver, but a quick look shows that first direct are offering 7% Vs Nationwides 6.8%,.do I still don't seen any practical benefit in them being a mutual.

spider42

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Did any of them pay you £100 last year for using their services without advising beforehand that they were going to do so?

That one has been done to death on other threads already - you probably won't agree, but some of us think that approach to distributing profit is the antithesis of how a mutual should work.

WillPS said:

Did/do any of them offer an 8% interest saver?

Monmouthshire BS.  And they outdid Nationwide by paying 8% on £300/month compared to £200/month for NW.  Monmouthshire also launched their product before Nationwide.

And Saffron BS offered 9% to 'loyalty' members, albeit on only £50/month.

@Rob5342 was asking for advantages to banking with a mutual. MonBS and Saffron BS were, last time I checked, mutuals, no?

Yes, they are mutuals as well.

I think Rob5342 was asking the question "Does being a muutal have any practical benefit though? I had a current account with them..." in relation to Nationwide specifically, because he was quoting and replying to my point "Nationwide is meant to be a mutual and being a mutual is supposed to bring benefits to members".  I could be wrong though, and perhaps Rob5342 could clarify?

The point though is Nationwide is not offering something better than another mutual does, even though it is much bigger and should be able to leverage economies of scale.

So the advantage to having a current account with a mutual over anyone else (presuming @Rob5342 doesn't live in one of the handful of postcode letters in the North West which are eligible for Cumberland's account) last year was a potential £100 payment. The fairer share scheme. Which they're doing again, it seems.

But you've arbitrarily declared I can't point that out so...

Well the Halifax Reward current account has been paying account holders £5 per month (after deduction of basic rate tax, or tax-free depending which option you take) for well over a decade. So £60 per year. The qualifying conditions are known in advance.

Versus Nationwide's £100 (before tax), which is (so far) a one off, but could be repeated, and based on somewhat arbitrary conditions only known afterwards. So since I opened my Halifax account in 2010, I've received £825 (after basic rate tax) from Halifax. Whereas with Nationwide, the most you could have received would be £100 (before tax).

So the non-mutual wins hands down.

WillPS

[Deleted User] said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Did any of them pay you £100 last year for using their services without advising beforehand that they were going to do so?

That one has been done to death on other threads already - you probably won't agree, but some of us think that approach to distributing profit is the antithesis of how a mutual should work.

WillPS said:

Did/do any of them offer an 8% interest saver?

Monmouthshire BS.  And they outdid Nationwide by paying 8% on £300/month compared to £200/month for NW.  Monmouthshire also launched their product before Nationwide.

And Saffron BS offered 9% to 'loyalty' members, albeit on only £50/month.

@Rob5342 was asking for advantages to banking with a mutual. MonBS and Saffron BS were, last time I checked, mutuals, no?

Yes, they are mutuals as well.

I think Rob5342 was asking the question "Does being a muutal have any practical benefit though? I had a current account with them..." in relation to Nationwide specifically, because he was quoting and replying to my point "Nationwide is meant to be a mutual and being a mutual is supposed to bring benefits to members".  I could be wrong though, and perhaps Rob5342 could clarify?

The point though is Nationwide is not offering something better than another mutual does, even though it is much bigger and should be able to leverage economies of scale.

Nationwide operates akin to a standard commercial bank. However, it doesn't have operate like a standard PLC with shareholders able to pushback about things like CEO pay or the wasteful member payment in 2023. It's products aren't meaningfully superior than PLC peers either. 

Except for the fact they ("wastefully") reward some of their product holders in a way a PLC never would. Last year to the tune of £100 which nobody had expected. They're also indicating they'll do the same again this year and while they continue to prosper financially.

I hold current accounts with a dozen banks but none of them have ever given me £100 for meeting some eligibility requirements only published retrospectively. If you received such a payment, it's hard to argue that doesn't make the account better for you, at least in that regard.

If you didn't last year (as I didn't) then one reaction to that is to belittle the whole thing as rubbish/wasteful/immoral as plenty have on here. Or you could better align yourself and hope for a better result in future.

[Deleted User]

Rob5342 said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Did any of them pay you £100 last year for using their services without advising beforehand that they were going to do so?

That one has been done to death on other threads already - you probably won't agree, but some of us think that approach to distributing profit is the antithesis of how a mutual should work.

WillPS said:

Did/do any of them offer an 8% interest saver?

Monmouthshire BS.  And they outdid Nationwide by paying 8% on £300/month compared to £200/month for NW.  Monmouthshire also launched their product before Nationwide.

And Saffron BS offered 9% to 'loyalty' members, albeit on only £50/month.

@Rob5342 was asking for advantages to banking with a mutual. MonBS and Saffron BS were, last time I checked, mutuals, no?

Yes, they are mutuals as well.

I think Rob5342 was asking the question "Does being a muutal have any practical benefit though? I had a current account with them..." in relation to Nationwide specifically, because he was quoting and replying to my point "Nationwide is meant to be a mutual and being a mutual is supposed to bring benefits to members".  I could be wrong though, and perhaps Rob5342 could clarify?

Yes I meant what benefit does Nationwide being a mutual actually bring in practice.

Nobody else has given me money without announcing it first, but I've got £1000 from switching bonuses, including £150 for switching from Nationwide to Halifax so by leaving them I'm better off than if I'd stayed with them.

I've never had an 8% saver, but a quick look shows that first direct are offering 7% Vs Nationwides 6.8%,.do I still don't seen any practical benefit in them being a mutual.

I'm waiting for someone to tundle out the 8% saver that you could deposit a few hundred pounds a month into as a reason for Nationwide's mutual status...

WillPS

[Deleted User] said:

Rob5342 said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Did any of them pay you £100 last year for using their services without advising beforehand that they were going to do so?

That one has been done to death on other threads already - you probably won't agree, but some of us think that approach to distributing profit is the antithesis of how a mutual should work.

WillPS said:

Did/do any of them offer an 8% interest saver?

Monmouthshire BS.  And they outdid Nationwide by paying 8% on £300/month compared to £200/month for NW.  Monmouthshire also launched their product before Nationwide.

And Saffron BS offered 9% to 'loyalty' members, albeit on only £50/month.

@Rob5342 was asking for advantages to banking with a mutual. MonBS and Saffron BS were, last time I checked, mutuals, no?

Yes, they are mutuals as well.

I think Rob5342 was asking the question "Does being a muutal have any practical benefit though? I had a current account with them..." in relation to Nationwide specifically, because he was quoting and replying to my point "Nationwide is meant to be a mutual and being a mutual is supposed to bring benefits to members".  I could be wrong though, and perhaps Rob5342 could clarify?

Yes I meant what benefit does Nationwide being a mutual actually bring in practice.

Nobody else has given me money without announcing it first, but I've got £1000 from switching bonuses, including £150 for switching from Nationwide to Halifax so by leaving them I'm better off than if I'd stayed with them.

I've never had an 8% saver, but a quick look shows that first direct are offering 7% Vs Nationwides 6.8%,.do I still don't seen any practical benefit in them being a mutual.

I'm waiting for someone to tundle out the 8% saver that you could deposit a few hundred pounds a month into as a reason for Nationwide's mutual status...

It's not a 'reason for mutual status', but as the members who took advantage of Nationwide's chart topping 8% offer will tell you, they are a common way for their society to reward them. Members from Monmouthshire, Skipton, Saffron, Tipton, Yorkshire, Mansfield, Suffolk, Bath, West Brom and any other Building Society I've forgotten would likely agree as they too have all been offered eye-catching >6% interest rate savers for eligible members in the last year.

Section62

WillPS said:

So the advantage to having a current account with a mutual over anyone else (presuming @Rob5342 doesn't live in one of the handful of postcode letters in the North West which are eligible for Cumberland's account) last year was a potential £100 payment. The fairer share scheme. Which they're doing again, it seems.

"Potential" would have benefited from some emphasis in that statement.  Plenty of Nationwide current account customers didn't get a £100 payment due to the arbirtary and retrospective nature of the criteria Nationwide applied to decide who the deserving members were.  As I've previously commented, for some of us that is the antithesis of what "mutual" means.  Calling it "Fairer share" just rubbed salt into the wound.

WillPS said:

But you've arbitrarily declared I can't point that out so...

No, that wasn't what I said.  Please don't attribute comments to me I haven't made.

WillPS

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

So the advantage to having a current account with a mutual over anyone else (presuming @Rob5342 doesn't live in one of the handful of postcode letters in the North West which are eligible for Cumberland's account) last year was a potential £100 payment. The fairer share scheme. Which they're doing again, it seems.

"Potential" would have benefited from some emphasis in that statement.  Plenty of Nationwide current account customers didn't get a £100 payment due to the arbirtary and retrospective nature of the criteria Nationwide applied to decide who the deserving members were.  As I've previously commented, for some of us that is the antithesis of what "mutual" means.  Calling it "Fairer share" just rubbed salt into the wound.

WillPS said:

But you've arbitrarily declared I can't point that out so...

No, that wasn't what I said.  Please don't attribute comments to me I haven't made.

Cool. I point the learned contributor to my contribution 3 posts up.

I note you've thusfar declined to take up my invitation to substantiate how you perceive Nationwide's credit cards to be unacceptably inferior, could I perhaps invite you to do so, lest you might be perceived as moaning as you were so upset about being accused of previously?

WillPS

spider42 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Section62 said:

WillPS said:

Did any of them pay you £100 last year for using their services without advising beforehand that they were going to do so?

That one has been done to death on other threads already - you probably won't agree, but some of us think that approach to distributing profit is the antithesis of how a mutual should work.

WillPS said:

Did/do any of them offer an 8% interest saver?

Monmouthshire BS.  And they outdid Nationwide by paying 8% on £300/month compared to £200/month for NW.  Monmouthshire also launched their product before Nationwide.

And Saffron BS offered 9% to 'loyalty' members, albeit on only £50/month.

@Rob5342 was asking for advantages to banking with a mutual. MonBS and Saffron BS were, last time I checked, mutuals, no?

Yes, they are mutuals as well.

I think Rob5342 was asking the question "Does being a muutal have any practical benefit though? I had a current account with them..." in relation to Nationwide specifically, because he was quoting and replying to my point "Nationwide is meant to be a mutual and being a mutual is supposed to bring benefits to members".  I could be wrong though, and perhaps Rob5342 could clarify?

The point though is Nationwide is not offering something better than another mutual does, even though it is much bigger and should be able to leverage economies of scale.

So the advantage to having a current account with a mutual over anyone else (presuming @Rob5342 doesn't live in one of the handful of postcode letters in the North West which are eligible for Cumberland's account) last year was a potential £100 payment. The fairer share scheme. Which they're doing again, it seems.

But you've arbitrarily declared I can't point that out so...

Well the Halifax Reward current account has been paying account holders £5 per month (after deduction of basic rate tax, or tax-free depending which option you take) for well over a decade. So £60 per year. The qualifying conditions are known in advance.

Versus Nationwide's £100 (before tax), which is (so far) a one off, but could be repeated, and based on somewhat arbitrary conditions only known afterwards. So since I opened my Halifax account in 2010, I've received £825 (after basic rate tax) from Halifax. Whereas with Nationwide, the most you could have received would be £100 (before tax).

So the non-mutual wins hands down.

Yep, I would agree that Halifax's Reward product is overall a better product than any of Nationwide's competing fee-free accounts (although I don't agree that one must neccessarily have one or the other but not both!). That wasn't the challenge tho - it was 'does being a mutual have any practical benefit'.

The answer is yes - and in the case of current accounts with Nationwide over the last year the 'practical benefits' have been a surprise £100 payment and an indication of another and exclusive regular savers with an 8% rate that topped the charts for several months.

No other current account provider has done either of these things. Even their current 6.5% is only beaten by First Direct's no-access 7% and Co-operative Bank's 7%.