Getting union recognised at small workplace

EnPointe

Grumpy_chap said:

kensiko said:

I see, I must be misunderstanding something at this point.

According to https://www.gov.uk/trade-union-recognition-employers/union-requests-recognition it states when the union is requesting to be recognised they must:
"identify which employees will be represented by the union when it’s recognised, sometimes known as the bargaining unit".

OK - I totally admit I am not knowledgeable here, but my lay-persons take would mean which class of employee will be represented by Union X.

Consider the example of a Teaching Union, they might reasonably represent all Teaching staff at ABC Academy.  Catering staff, Maintenance staff, School Admin, Cleaners, etc. might all be outwith the representation of the Teaching Union, but may have other Union representation.

Only my guess, though.  Someone may know for certain.

that is my understanding  

as once the TU is recognised that would be the  body the business would negotiate with  for the  staff  groups they are covered by  

as you  said  in a School you;d expect the teaching unions to cover  the Teachers and perhaps some of the teaching assistants  

if you look at the Ambulance service  , often  they have recognition with Unison, GMB  and RCN  , Unison and GMB tends to cover most the road staff  ( PTS, Urgent, Emergency Support worker  roles , Technicians and Paramedics) and the call takers and often support staff and the RCN  if recognisised covers  the Nurses working  in triage roles in EOC whether for 999 or 1111 , any Nurses on the road  ( whether as Ambulance Nurses, as Techs or Paramedics who also have live Nursing registration or  as part of Mental Health  response unit ,  plus any Nurses working in Infection control , education etc etc )

kensiko

Most grateful to everybody.

That does make more sense now meaning a 'selection' of individuals.

penners324

I'd be surprised if there isn't clauses in your contracts about the company not recognising unions or collective bargaining agreements.

The employer doesn't have to recognise a union

Savvy_Sue

Wyndham said:

Don't know the process for setting up a recognised union, but just to add, once a union is recognised, the employer has no right to know who is, and who is not, in the union. They also can't (legally) discriminate against you because of it.

Very true, and I'd also suggest that you do NOT request your union subs to be deducted from your salary. The union likes this because it means if you get a payrise and it tips you into the next contribution bracket, they find out immediately. The employer won't like it so much because it means an extra job for them at the payroll stage - and I'm not sure they have to offer this option anyway. 

It does also mean that the information about who is in the union is available to the employer. Whether they should ask for it from payroll information is another matter, but if it's not there they definitely can't have it. 

But MOST importantly, if you leave, and your subs aren't paid, it may take a while to catch up with you, and if you're having problems in a new job you might want the representation sooner rather than later. Yes, it's a pessimistic position but hey ... 

for the OP, we managed to get Unison recognition not long before I retired. It was a hard slog because there was stiff opposition from the top, not helped by some clumsy communication from our local rep. In the event, that opposition moved on, and voluntary recognition was agreed. 

I was also quite evangelical about everyone joining the union, fortunately there were a couple of us involved in induction for all new staff in a small organisation, so we both bent a few ears. I did also have a "this is why you should be in the union" tale from a past life - a disciplinary which was probably justified and definitely a sackable offence, if proven, which just fell apart when the union rep asked the question "how do you know ...?" Since the employer had behaved very stupidly with some evidence, of course they did not KNOW, and if they had KNOWN at the time then they should have acted very differently. 

Then one of my colleagues was actually suspended: we worked with people who could be quite volatile and not necessarily able to think things through rationally. I'd always say that if the employer had cause to suspend you while they investigated something, you wouldn't be able to talk to your colleagues, and you'd really really want SOMEONE on your side. My colleague gave someone a lift to an appointment with another organisation, on arrival they said my colleague had let them do x, y z. That organisation reported this to my employer (quite rightly), and there was an immediate suspension and investigation. Having a union rep in that meeting - well worth the subs. 

Once you have recognition, then your workplace rep and your H&S rep should be given some paid time for training. I did a week's remote H&S training, and my colleague attended college locally for a week to become our rep. Well worthwhile. 

General_Grant

penners324 said:

I'd be surprised if there isn't clauses in your contracts about the company not recognising unions or collective bargaining agreements.

The employer doesn't have to recognise a union

I believe they do have to recognise a union where the necessary number of members want this.

elsien

When we were asking for union recognition (some years ago now) we were told that over 50% of employees had to agree. And that was 50% across the organisation - we were a number of small scattered individual work units.
So although I talked most people in my individual setting to vote for recognition, there were not enough people across the whole organisation so it didn't happen.

EnPointe

penners324 said:

I'd be surprised if there isn't clauses in your contracts about the company not recognising unions or collective bargaining agreements.

The employer doesn't have to recognise a union

not sure where you get that impression from  

 it can be imposed ona business 

recognition   or not  it  doesn't stop employees being members, organising nad accessing  individual support from a Trade unions  and any attempt  by an employer to hamper that  will not end well  for the business

TELLIT01

kensiko said:

Thanks very much for your details response.

I have asked the same general questions on that contact age already.
I am waiting on their answers but thought I would also try the 'collective mind' 

I am the kind of person that likes to know the ins and outs of these things and probably wouldn't mind getting more involved if required, but for the time being my aim is to try to get more colleagues to join Unite and see what happens from there.

You mentioned "Union recognition by employers is only really necessary to enable collective bargaining on things like conditions, terms of employment and pay negotiations." which is very interesting, as I am aware some of the whispers are along the lines of terms and pay.  Things like holiday entitlement etc.

Having a union doesn't automatically mean that the employer has to give in to demands and give larger pay rises, for example.  Please don't think that a union presence will make everything in the garden rosy, or even improve staff/management relations.  It may or may not.

GingerTim

TELLIT01 said:

kensiko said:

Thanks very much for your details response.

I have asked the same general questions on that contact age already.
I am waiting on their answers but thought I would also try the 'collective mind' 

I am the kind of person that likes to know the ins and outs of these things and probably wouldn't mind getting more involved if required, but for the time being my aim is to try to get more colleagues to join Unite and see what happens from there.

You mentioned "Union recognition by employers is only really necessary to enable collective bargaining on things like conditions, terms of employment and pay negotiations." which is very interesting, as I am aware some of the whispers are along the lines of terms and pay.  Things like holiday entitlement etc.

Having a union doesn't automatically mean that the employer has to give in to demands and give larger pay rises, for example.  Please don't think that a union presence will make everything in the garden rosy, or even improve staff/management relations.  It may or may not.

Perhaps, but as they say - shy bairns get nowt.

Savvy_Sue

With a small employer, I've always thought the main benefits of union membership are for the individual rather than for the staff team as a whole.

It shocks and surprises me how many people are prepared to work in frontline, public facing roles, without joining a union.

A child or vulnerable individual makes an allegation, you're suspended, your colleagues won't know why, you won't be able to speak to them: it's a lonely place.

Even without that risk, if your employer wants to re-grade your job and reduce your salary, the knowledge that you can get support from the union is priceless. 

I did several training courses in my own time, they ran online activities during Covid, I got free advice on my father's will, I'm now a retired member for a single low payment.