Should the triple lock be scrapped in the 6 March Budget?

Eldi_Dos

Switzerland, noted for prudence, voted tonight to give pensioners thirteen payments a year rather than twelve.The extra payment to be paid in November as campaigners said Christmas fun does not stop at 65.
Be interesting to see if it has a Truss effect on markets.

Silvertabby

Yes it should be scrapped

Eldi_Dos said:

Switzerland, noted for prudence, voted tonight to give pensioners thirteen payments a year rather than twelve.The extra payment to be paid in November as campaigners said Christmas fun does not stop at 65.
Be interesting to see if it has a Truss effect on markets.

We, and all other UK pensioners who have opted for 4 weekly payments, already get 13 payments per year.

BikingBud

Alex444 said:

Lowest pension in Europe and going to highest retiral age, got to be some perks,  it will soon be getting taxed as well!🤬

Income will be taxed! That is not quite the same as state pension getting taxed 

Pensions should increase but not all people should be getting a state pension.

You only need to see on here where many discus "the number" and the need to manage the drawdown of multi-hundred thousand pound funds to bridge the gap until SP commences yet trying to ensure they have an income of £40/50 or in some cases £60k per annum and retain the largest possible pot to hand on to their off spring.

It's perverse really 

Make the SP means tested!

green_man

Yes it should be scrapped

Makes no sense for Pension to be triple locked, this just guarantees that over time Pension level outpaces earnings which clearly is unsustainable in the long term.  Covid showed the fallacy in stark terms, which forced the government to have a temp suspension, but the same issue arises any time there’s a recession and wages plunge.  Should simply be linked to wages over say 3 years 

Cus

Exodi said:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/poll/2023/mse-annual-census-2023/
Nearly 60% of this forum is in their late 50's or older. 

You didn't need to do this poll, the results were obvious. It's the whole reason we enjoy the inherently unsustainable triple lock in the first place- because the same demographic also turn up to vote and the reality is, people vote for things that benefit them.

The triple lock is a vote winner, it is nothing about equality or economics, it's about keeping the older people on side. Outside of virtue signalling, no-one close to retirement/retired actually cares about the ever-increasing burden on taxpayers, because [insert something about having 'paid into the system'] (despite usually being net beneficiaries of the tax system) or [insert some vague notion of having 'worked hard'].

Just look at the last couple of years. Inflation surges in 2022-2023, pensioners enjoy a 10.1% increase on account of inflation. Workers wages then increase in response to that inflation in 2023-2024 and pensioners scoop in again and enjoy a 8.5% increase this time on account of worker pay increases; an obvious double dip (and that's not even mentioning that this was calculated during the month many public sector workers received one off bonuses, meaning the earnings figure was higher than it should have been. But even the idea of removing the bonuses from the equation and increasing pensions by a meagre 7.8% would cause uproar among pensioners which politicians couldn't be bothered to deal with).

I think the icing on the cake is that most people not nearing retirement are painfully aware that the mickey mouse state pension increases can't last forever, so can look forward to an inevitable gutting of the state pension in the future, and/or it becoming means tested, and/or being told to work to 70, 80, who knows. All while being forced to increasingly subsidise pensioners in the mean-time under the outdated guise that all pensioners are poor.

But I get that I'm not going to convince turkeys to vote for Christmas, and clearly there are a lot of turkeys on this forum. Good on you guys I guess, I certainly wish I got a cumulative 19.5% increase over the past two years, but I think that is only the stuff of dreams for workers unfortunately.

Now, as usual, time for the heart-wrenching tales about destitute pensioners in response.

Lots of valid points here imo. A poll like this should be a 'should we provide for category A or category B, as when it's good for one type, its invariably not good for the other.

However the comment you made..
"Outside of virtue signalling, no-one close to retirement/retired actually cares about the ever-increasing burden on taxpayers, because [insert something about having 'paid into the system'] (despite usually being net beneficiaries of the tax system) or [insert some vague notion of having 'worked hard']." 
..in my opinion suggests a lack of empathy, and is probably exactly the type of perspective those who hold the above view now had 25 years ago.

BlackKnightMonty

Yes it should be scrapped

BikingBud said:

Alex444 said:

Lowest pension in Europe and going to highest retiral age, got to be some perks,  it will soon be getting taxed as well!🤬

Income will be taxed! That is not quite the same as state pension getting taxed 

Pensions should increase but not all people should be getting a state pension.

You only need to see on here where many discus "the number" and the need to manage the drawdown of multi-hundred thousand pound funds to bridge the gap until SP commences yet trying to ensure they have an income of £40/50 or in some cases £60k per annum and retain the largest possible pot to hand on to their off spring.

It's perverse really 

Make the SP means tested!

Means testing means that anyone who has been a net contributor throughout their working life, won’t receive any SP! It’s just an endless redistribution of wealth!

They will also need to rename the state pension to reflect that it is now means tested and no longer universal.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/theeffectsoftaxesandbenefitsonhouseholdincome/financialyearending2022

Having chalked up 30 years of SP/NI contributions in my working life already, effectively taking the rug from under me like this is pretty unappealing…

nigelbb

BikingBud said:

Alex444 said:

Lowest pension in Europe and going to highest retiral age, got to be some perks,  it will soon be getting taxed as well!🤬

Income will be taxed! That is not quite the same as state pension getting taxed 

Pensions should increase but not all people should be getting a state pension.

You only need to see on here where many discus "the number" and the need to manage the drawdown of multi-hundred thousand pound funds to bridge the gap until SP commences yet trying to ensure they have an income of £40/50 or in some cases £60k per annum and retain the largest possible pot to hand on to their off spring.

It's perverse really 

Make the SP means tested!

It's already effectively means tested by taxation.

Qyburn

Reading the comments you'd think the poll would be overwhelmingly "Scrap it". But in fact the majority voted "Keep". I guess it's a case of the strident minority.

MattMattMattUK

Yes it should be scrapped

Alex444 said:

Lowest pension in Europe and going to highest retiral age, got to be some perks,  it will soon be getting taxed as well!🤬

Lowest tax contributions in the EU may well have something to do with that.
The bottom and middle third of earners have the lowest rate of effective income taxation in the EU (the top third have the fifth highest).
Largest tax free allowance in the EU, the next biggest is around £7,500, the average is €1,800 and many countries have zero tax free allowance.
Many other EU countries have compulsory health insurance on top of taxes.
The UK has the lowest effective rate of VAT in the EU due to excluding food, which other countries do not (most charge 10-12% on food).
55% of households receive more in cash benefits than they pay in all taxes. 
Fewer than 5% of people make a net contribution in any one year, the net lifetime contributions are even lower. 

MattMattMattUK

Yes it should be scrapped

BikingBud said:

Alex444 said:

Lowest pension in Europe and going to highest retiral age, got to be some perks,  it will soon be getting taxed as well!🤬

Income will be taxed! That is not quite the same as state pension getting taxed 

Pensions should increase but not all people should be getting a state pension.

You only need to see on here where many discus "the number" and the need to manage the drawdown of multi-hundred thousand pound funds to bridge the gap until SP commences yet trying to ensure they have an income of £40/50 or in some cases £60k per annum and retain the largest possible pot to hand on to their off spring.

It's perverse really 

Make the SP means tested!

Making it means tested would be the worst possible thing to do. Those in a marginal benefit situation, which is probably 50-60% of the population will then not have private pensions because it will require large contributions over their lifetime to only be marginally better off than those that get the means tested state pension, some of the rest will never pay in and another chunk will be made to pay for a state pension but never get anything back. We need higher taxes for everyone (and that includes those that I pay) and a later retirement age to fund the state pension, as well as a wider conversation about old age and how we manage it.