Radisson blu at Manchester Airport T2

TM74

They have recently changed their policy with the help of Parking Eye monitoring their car park and drop off area 
So now you have to register your no plate when you drop off or pick up ( although the sign says drop off only which is a bit weird) .

A mate of mine collected a client saw the sign but didn't understand it properly, went it to the hotel yesterday and explained what happened the previous week but the guy at the counter replied " tough luck mate you're getting a fine"  - would there be grounds for him to challenge this because the change of policy hasn't been active that long? I've emailed Radisson Blu Man Air for clarity, but have yet to receive a reply back? 

Umkomaas

The complaint needs to be shoved higher up the Radisson food chain. The Bell Boy showing exactly why he's got the job!

Le_Kirk

How on earth can you register (presumably inside the hotel) if you are dropping off or picking up; if you leave your car to go inside and register, you will likely come back to a NtD?  Void for impossibility.

D_P_Dance

A bad comment on Trivago er al will probably get this canceeled by the hotel.l 

Fruitcake

The hotel employee is obviously clueless because an unregulated private parking company cannot issue fines.

The Ts and Cs, if that's what they are, at the bottom of the ParkingEye sign are unreadable and incapable of forming a contract with the motorist.

The requirement to register vehicles at all times is on the hotel sign, and therefore has nothing to do with the Ts and Cs on the PE sign. Applying the wording from section 69 of the The Consumer Rights Act 2015, the meaning of the wording that favours the consumer (motorist) is the one that prevails. 

My interpretation would be that there is a requirement to register vehicles with the hotel, but there are no associated terms and conditions with that requirement, and no consequences if a motorist fails to register, therefore there can be no charge levied for failure to register a vehicle registration mark, all of which is completely independent from whatever the PE Ts and Cs are supposed to convey.

In addition, if the hotel is within the airport boundary covered by airport byelaws, then it is not relevant land and the keeper cannot be held liable. It is important therefore that the driver's identity is never revealed to anyone; not in complaints nor in any appeal.

If your mate gets a PCN, they should come here and learn how to deal with it. That would be much better than you trying to relay information that could easily get lost in translation. He can either take over this thread, but you would need to vouch for him so we know it's not someone with an opposite agenda to what we do on this forum, or start his own thread.

However, the basics are that he should enact Plan A and complain to the hotel manager and the UK CEO of the hotel franchise. Note that the hotel owner may not be the Radisson chain. Use the hotel complaints process and/or contact the manager direct if your mate can find their email address. Some hotel chains use a standard format so he could try manager@ followed by the hotel name plus location.com or .co,uk.

For the CEO's contact details, I find this site useful.

https://www.!!!!!!

If that fails, then he should carry out Plan B by appealing to PE using the template in blue from the sticky thread for NEWBIES, and add a one liner that since the site is not relevant land as defined by the PoFA 2012, the keeper cannot be held liable, so PE should cancel to save themselves money.
If the appeal is rejected, then your mate should appeal to PoPLA using all the standard points available to him from the third post of the NEWBIES sticky Announcement, plus lack of bedding in period which is a breach of the BPA CoP, contract terms void for impossibility, not relevant land, inadequate signage incapable of forming a contract with a motorist, and no breach of Ts and Cs since registering a vehicle is not a PE requirement and does not appear on their signs. PE therefore had no right to obtain and process the keeper's data, which is a serious breach of data protection regulations, and a breach of PE's KADOE contract with the DVLA.

For PoPLA, I would put no breach of Ts and Cs first, followed by not relevant land, then the rest in any order.

Your mate should also complain to his MP.

Debszzzz2

The Radisson at Manchester Airport is on airport land covered by airport bylaws. As such, PE can never rely on PoFA to hold a keeper liable. Anyone receiving a PCN/NtK for stopping at the location only has to respond as the keeper and refuse PE's invitation to identify the driver. They will have no option but to cancel or issue a POPLA code where it will then be cancelled.

So, @TM74, tell your mate to wait for the NtK and appeal with wording along the lines of:

Dear PE,

As the keeper, I refuse your invitation to name the driver. You are fully aware that you cannot transfer liability form the driver to me, the keeper, because you are unable to rely on PoFA as the location is not-relevant land for the purposes of PoFA.

So, either cancel this PCN or waste your money and issue me with a POPLA code where I will appeal and you will lose.

Love and kisses,

 

Wonka_2

@fruitcake @Debszzzz2 I'm loving the legal knowledge/challenges of this but genuinely interested on what the long-term solutions to this are (and if it needs transferring to another post/board then so be it)

I'm a weekly user of this (and many other) airports and see all the games by drivers trying to avoid the official routes for drop off/collection. Will it get to the point in the UK where a distant Park and Ride with all non-approved vehicles banned from entering the perimeter of the airport is the only solution ?

I bow to others experience but at non-UK the places I fly to there seems to be less desire to find the exclusive 'free' place to overcome the 'rules' and therefore less need to this to be 'policed' (and in this case 'policed' isn't the legal definition)

Le_Kirk

D_P_Dance said:

A bad comment on Trivago er al will probably get this canceeled by the hotel.l 

Good to see you back @D_P_Dance

Fruitcake

Wonka_2 said:

@fruitcake @Debszzzz2 I'm loving the legal knowledge/challenges of this but genuinely interested on what the long-term solutions to this are (and if it needs transferring to another post/board then so be it)

I'm a weekly user of this (and many other) airports and see all the games by drivers trying to avoid the official routes for drop off/collection. Will it get to the point in the UK where a distant Park and Ride with all non-approved vehicles banned from entering the perimeter of the airport is the only solution ?

I bow to others experience but at non-UK the places I fly to there seems to be less desire to find the exclusive 'free' place to overcome the 'rules' and therefore less need to this to be 'policed' (and in this case 'policed' isn't the legal definition)

Long term, and hopefully not much longer before it will be introduced, will be the legislation to support the Private Parking Bill 2019 that will include amongst other things, a mandatory independent appeals process that does not currently exist.

Parking companies will for once be regulated, and forced to comply with the government's requirements instead of currently being able to bend and ignore the parking trade associations codes of practice. 

This at least will mean that many PCNs never get issued, unlike the 9 million or so a year we currently see. It will also mean an increase in the number of appeals by motorists that are allowed instead of the 40 - 50% success rate we see for BPA member parking companies, or the dreadful 4 - 5% of appeals allowed for IPC member parking companies.

With regard to your specific question about airports, the current and future process is completely cost driven. Whereas parking used to be free for example at drop-off/pick-up areas, many airports charge extortionate rates and reduce the time allowed. The cost of short stay and long stay parking continue to rise. Then you get infestations where a mobile camera vehicle does nothing but drive around the airport roads to catch people who have stopped, irrespective of the reason why, and irrespective if it is not prohibited by byelaws. Then we see cases on here where a PPC issued a parking charge to someone who was stopped at a Stop sign, or issue court claims against people who were stopped at a roundabout Give Way sign, or in a queue at a car park barrier, or at a zebra crossing, or in a place where the PPC is not contracted to operate.


All this encourages motorists to stand off in lanes and laybys and residential streets, and in both official and unofficial car parks in pubs and fields and peoples driveways. This means less people park at the airport, so the owners put their prices up to maintain their income, and less people use certain airports, preferring to use one further away that has cheaper parking.
This increase in charges and "policing" of no-stopping zones also causes inconsiderate parking and waiting in residential and even rural areas. The neighbours complain about the nuisance, so local authorities such as the one near Bristol clamp down on this by installing double reds instead of double yellows on public roads, which in turn causes motorists to find somewhere else to park or wait, often causing more nuisance than if they were allowed to stop briefly on double yellows.

Add to this the PoFA 2012 that permits a parking company to pursue and hold someone liable who was not even in the vehicle at the time, no wonder people will park or wait on a public road because even if they do get caught, they will end up paying much less than if they were caught by a PPC.

It's all down to greed and the lust for money, partly by airport landowners and landholders, and partly by unregulated private parking companies. I can see this improving when the new government code of conduct is introduced, but I can't see the cost of parking being reduced enough to encourage people to use the airport/hotel/on site restaurant car parks any time soon, or people like me who now refuse point blank to fly from certain airports.

TM74

Information invaluable as ever guys, I will let you know the outcome, but I did email the hotel and got this reply: 

Good afternoon,

If your client is a guest of our hotel then you can register your vehicle with us on level 3 reception and this would be free.

 If your client isn’t a guest of our hotel then there is a pay machine outside the hotel entrance where you can either pay at the machine for use the Pay By Phone app.

 Kind regards,

xxxxxxxx

 

Debszzzz2

I never pay when dropping off at LHR. I just wait for the inevitable APCOA NtK and respond with the stock "As the keeper, I suggest you go shove your demand where the sun doesn't shine. The driver may be more amenable."

It never progresses beyond that except for their stock reply which tells me not to be so naughty in future but for now they're forgiving me and cancelling out of the goodness of their hearts.

At this location, it depends on whether the keeper has the fortitude to prove the PPC wrong if they should receive a PCN. In theory, the outcome should be the same.