MHO status for nursing students

Deladuro

This is a very niche question, but I'm hoping someone out there will have some experience or knowledge in this area.

I'm due to retire from NHS in Scotland in the next few week and have received my calculations from the SPPA.

Whilst I'm fortunate enough to have MHO status, it would appear that my years as a student (Aug 1991 to October 1994) do not count towards my doubling date. I trained in Intellectual disability nursing ('mental handicap' was the term at that time) and was a salaried student making superann. payments. Of course, having moved house several times, I can find no documentation regarding contracts/agreements.

I've spoken to my union for clarification and to a couple of recently retired friends.

Unison say that MHO status would only start once registered, but this seemed to be based on a shouted conversation across the office to a colleague who was "in a similar situation".

One friend had all 3 years counted and another had 2 out his 3 years as a student counting.

Does anyone out there know if MHO status should/could be applied to student nurse posts in this era?

Pat38493

Deladuro said:

This is a very niche question, but I'm hoping someone out there will have some experience or knowledge in this area.

I'm due to retire from NHS in Scotland in the next few week and have received my calculations from the SPPA.

Whilst I'm fortunate enough to have MHO status, it would appear that my years as a student (Aug 1991 to October 1994) do not count towards my doubling date. I trained in Intellectual disability nursing ('mental handicap' was the term at that time) and was a salaried student making superann. payments. Of course, having moved house several times, I can find no documentation regarding contracts/agreements.

I've spoken to my union for clarification and to a couple of recently retired friends.

Unison say that MHO status would only start once registered, but this seemed to be based on a shouted conversation across the office to a colleague who was "in a similar situation".

One friend had all 3 years counted and another had 2 out his 3 years as a student counting.

Does anyone out there know if MHO status should/could be applied to student nurse posts in this era?

My wife retired a couple of years back with MHO status.  I will ask here about this, but I think it was included - she never mentioned anything about any years being excluded and as far as we could tell, she got the full number of years expected (well at least by that measure but that's a different story).

tacpot12

The official definition for an MHO is found in Regulation R3 Section 14 of the The National Health Service Pension Scheme Regulations 1995. There are three sub-sections to this which defines the different roles in which you might have MHO status. The sub-section that is mostly to be applicable to yourself is the first one, (a), which is: 

an officer working whole–time on the medical or nursing staff of a hospital used wholly or partly for the treatment of persons suffering from mental disorder, who devotes all, or almost all, of his time to the treatment or care of persons suffering from mental disorder;

"Almost all of their time" is now regarded to mean at least 80% of the time. But you had to be in the nursing staff of the hospital. So, if you were on the nursing staff of the hospital (even as a trainee), providing your were devoted to spending at least 80% of your time to the treatment or care of patients suffering from a mental disorder, you would seem to qualify as a MHO. The MHO status is reserved for full-time roles, so being employed to work at the hospital 3 days a week and not being employed on the other days to allow you to attend studies then you would not qualify. Even if you were on the staff and being paid fulltime, if you spent more than 20% of your time not caring or treating patients, then again you don't seem to meet the criteria. 

As you suggest within your question, there could be a general answer that applies to all student nurses at the time (if you were studing to be a mental health nurse). I hope you get a more definite answer, but it you don't you might have to take it up with NHSBSA, and then complain if you still think they have got it wrong.  

kaMelo

@tacpot12 has given a fairly comprehensive answer which kind of chimes with what I thought as a student nurse you would rotate through different departments throughout your training, only upon qualifying would you then take up a specific role with MHO status.
But I also note you said you trained in Intellectual disability nursing, were you already an RGN at this point or was that training alongside/instead of normal nurse training?

Deladuro

I chose to do the (far superior) training to become an intellectual disability nurse, followed later by a secondment to do mental health nursing.
The ID course did involve around 18 months of general nursing, paeds, obstetrics plus college, but also a majority of years 2 & 3 working full time on the wards in the local ID hospital.

I have read all there is to read on the NHSBSA, BMA and SPPA websites, but there's no definitive statement regarding MHO status and student nurses. There is for special classes - and student nurses are named and included.

There is a ruling by the Pensions Ombudsman relating to a case in Northern Ireland in which the employer (HSC in this case) states that a nurse who was contesting their MHO status was not entitled to it, apart from his student nurse role.
Pretty flimsy, I know.

Marcon

Deladuro said:

One friend had all 3 years counted and another had 2 out his 3 years as a student counting.

Does anyone out there know if MHO status should/could be applied to student nurse posts in this era?

See https://www.pensions-ombudsman.org.uk/sites/default/files/decisions/PO-14790.pdf page 6, point 19. Are your friends willing to be named, or do they have the same (understandable!) reluctance as the 'colleague' mentioned by Mr L, the complainant?

Deladuro

I'm familiar with the ruling having referred to it earlier. 
I suppose I could drag those colleagues into it, but thought that there may be someone on the forum who might have some actual experience or knowledge regarding the status of student nurses who trained during this era.

kaMelo

Deladuro said:

There is a ruling by the Pensions Ombudsman relating to a case in Northern Ireland in which the employer (HSC in this case) states that a nurse who was contesting their MHO status was not entitled to it, apart from his student nurse role.
Pretty flimsy, I know.

Assuming you're referring to the case posted by @Marcon, where in the ruling does it say that?

Deladuro said:

I'm familiar with the ruling having referred to it earlier. 
I suppose I could drag those colleagues into it, but thought that there may be someone on the forum who might have some actual experience or knowledge regarding the status of student nurses who trained during this era.

This is of no help to you whatsoever, but a friend of mine took general nurse training,(86 - 89) qualified as an RGN then took up a MHO role and has worked in mental health ever since. I spoke to them this morning and they confirmed their time as a student nurse does not count towards the doubling 

Marcon

kaMelo said:

Deladuro said:

There is a ruling by the Pensions Ombudsman relating to a case in Northern Ireland in which the employer (HSC in this case) states that a nurse who was contesting their MHO status was not entitled to it, apart from his student nurse role.
Pretty flimsy, I know.

Assuming you're referring to the case posted by @Marcon, where in the ruling does it say that?

I was puzzled by that too! Having read the case I thought OP must have been referring to another determination, hence my suggestion they looked at point 19 of this one.

kaMelo

Marcon said:

kaMelo said:

Deladuro said:

There is a ruling by the Pensions Ombudsman relating to a case in Northern Ireland in which the employer (HSC in this case) states that a nurse who was contesting their MHO status was not entitled to it, apart from his student nurse role.
Pretty flimsy, I know.

Assuming you're referring to the case posted by @Marcon, where in the ruling does it say that?

I was puzzled by that too! Having read the case I thought OP must have been referring to another determination, hence my suggestion they looked at point 19 of this one.

The problem with that is it's asking someone to put their head above the parapet for no benefits, only potential negatives should it identify a mistake was made on their pension.

Marcon

kaMelo said:

Marcon said:

kaMelo said:

Deladuro said:

There is a ruling by the Pensions Ombudsman relating to a case in Northern Ireland in which the employer (HSC in this case) states that a nurse who was contesting their MHO status was not entitled to it, apart from his student nurse role.
Pretty flimsy, I know.

Assuming you're referring to the case posted by @Marcon, where in the ruling does it say that?

I was puzzled by that too! Having read the case I thought OP must have been referring to another determination, hence my suggestion they looked at point 19 of this one.

The problem with that is it's asking someone to put their head above the parapet for no benefits, only potential negatives should it identify a mistake was made on their pension.

Completely agree - the only 'benefit' might be the knowledge they are helping someone else, which is pretty intangible!