Am I under contract?

Bena9

In 2021 I was employed by Mu*** D** Ltd with a contract and then the owner of the business transferred my employment to another one of his companies V**** Ltd by giving me a P45 and a new contract. V**** was sold last year and I was given another P45 but no new contract. He started paying me through Mu*** D** Ltd again. 

I really need to leave this toxic employment asap. I am under the impression that I am not under contract. Please let me know if this is incorrect? 

DullGreyGuy

You are under contract as presumably you are doing work and getting paid for it... thats evidence of a contract existing. You should have been given the particulars of your employment but the lack of them doesn't mean a contract doesn't exist. 

Grumpy_chap

Bena9 said:

In 2021 I was employed by Mu*** D** Ltd with a contract and then the owner of the business transferred my employment to another one of his companies V**** Ltd by giving me a P45 and a new contract. V**** was sold last year and I was given another P45 but no new contract. He started paying me through Mu*** D** Ltd again. 

I really need to leave this toxic employment asap. I am under the impression that I am not under contract. Please let me know if this is incorrect? 

The employer seems to be following some sharp practice - not least the repeated P45 and new contracts seem to be attempting to circumvent continuity of service.

On the basis that you continue to provide a service and get paid in return, I think you have to assume that you are under contract, even if that is a verbal contract.  You should have been given a statement of particulars of employment.  I am not sure whether that could have been done verbally by referencing whatever the details were before and saying you already have that.

In terms of moving on, what was the notice period you were required to give under the two previous contracts you did have?  It may be worth finding an alternative employment and, when you give notice, give that which was required under the previous contracts.

Good luck.

Bena9

Grumpy_chap and @DullGreyGuy . Can you clarify if you think I am under the Mu*** D** Ltd contract or a standard employment contract?

I have now given notice but my employer believes that my past contract with Mu*** D** Ltd (which I received a P45 for in 2022) is still valid, because I worked under that company before (3-month notice period).

Savvy_Sue

Bena9 said:

Grumpy_chap and @DullGreyGuy . Can you clarify if you think I am under the Mu*** D** Ltd contract or a standard employment contract?

I have now given notice but my employer believes that my past contract with Mu*** D** Ltd (which I received a P45 for in 2022) is still valid, because I worked under that company before (3-month notice period).

I think I'd be asking them why, when you have a P45 from MD Ltd and no new contract issued after you rejoined? 

They can say "but that's our standard employment contract", but if they didn't provide it to you, how are you supposed to know that? 

Grumpy_chap

Bena9 said:

Grumpy_chap and @DullGreyGuy . Can you clarify if you think I am under the Mu*** D** Ltd contract or a standard employment contract?

I have now given notice but my employer believes that my past contract with Mu*** D** Ltd (which I received a P45 for in 2022) is still valid, because I worked under that company before (3-month notice period).

I am not sure that there is any such thing as "a standard employment contract".

I can only assume that, as you are being paid by Mu*** D** Ltd then you must be under the Mu*** D** Ltd contract.  

Did the previous contract with Mu*** D** Ltd have the three month notice period?
Was there any time before that applied?

Does the 3-month notice period affect you being able to still move to whatever the next role is?

Savvy_Sue

Grumpy_chap said:

Bena9 said:

Grumpy_chap and @DullGreyGuy . Can you clarify if you think I am under the Mu*** D** Ltd contract or a standard employment contract?

I have now given notice but my employer believes that my past contract with Mu*** D** Ltd (which I received a P45 for in 2022) is still valid, because I worked under that company before (3-month notice period).

I am not sure that there is any such thing as "a standard employment contract".

I can only assume that, as you are being paid by Mu*** D** Ltd then you must be under the Mu*** D** Ltd contract.  

Did the previous contract with Mu*** D** Ltd have the three month notice period?
Was there any time before that applied?

Does the 3-month notice period affect you being able to still move to whatever the next role is?

My reasoning goes that this is a 'new' employment with MD. How is the OP supposed to know how much notice MD requires if MD has not told them? My employer changed notice periods for two different groups of staff in the last few years I was there, so you'd have to be told what YOUR notice period was. We did have a couple of people leave us and come back: they got new contracts, setting out the new terms. 

There may not be a 'standard employment contract', but certain terms are assumed if they are not varied in writing: ACAS says (https://www.acas.org.uk/notice-periods/notice-when-resigning):
An employee's written statement of employment particulars must say how much notice they have to give their employer. This might also be in their employment contract.

By law, if an employee has worked for less than 1 month and their written statement does not say the notice period, they do not have to give any notice.

If they have worked for at least 1 month, they must give a minimum of 1 weeks' notice.

On a very practical level, what's the worst that can happen if the OP declines to work for longer than a month? difficulty obtaining references, possibility of being taken to court to cover expenses arising from their failure to give notice. Are either likely?

If you're either in a union or have legal expenses cover on your household insurance, this is something well worth asking about. Even if neither of those is available to you, half an hour with a specialist employment solicitor could be money well spent, even if you have to pay them to write a letter confirming your position. 

Of course, I might be wrong, and the original contract might still hold despite the P45 - but at least you'd know for sure! At that point you could either settle down to work that notice, or negotiate. Without actually getting as far as gross misconduct, you might be able to make it appear better for them to let you go than to hold you to the notice period! 

DullGreyGuy

Bena9 said:

Grumpy_chap and @DullGreyGuy . Can you clarify if you think I am under the Mu*** D** Ltd contract or a standard employment contract?

I have now given notice but my employer believes that my past contract with Mu*** D** Ltd (which I received a P45 for in 2022) is still valid, because I worked under that company before (3-month notice period).

This is the difficulty of not having a written contract, proving what the terms are. That said the statement of particulars is very high level and many things that people may consider important won't be in it. This where handbooks or intranets which contain HR policies etc play a role too.


Rather than getting distracted with the rest of the detail... you want out with the shortest notice period possible I am assuming? How long have you been re-employed by this entity? Have you spoken to your manager about your resignation and notice periods? It could all be a storm in a teacup and they are happy for you to leave in a weeks time.