Will, and property in trust

AlanF

Hi, I don't know if this is the most appropriate forum to post on. Please signpost me if somewhere more appropriate!

It's a bit complicated, but in short an elderly immediate family member has possibly been taken advantage of by an IFA - someone who she trusts. She has limited comprehension and recollection of her discussions with him (but I'm sure she does have capacity). She believes she has a will, that she has done with him, and she believes that she has placed her house in trust (to her main beneficiary) through him. However, she has no paperwork to support the existence either of the will, or of the trust. She is widowed and lives alone and owns her house outright.

The first issue (the will) is a simple matter to address - she has already booked an appointment with a local solicitor (her 'usual' solicitor firm) in order that she can draw up a will.

However, my concern is that the solicitor is likely to want to discuss this with her as it would presumably form part of the will discussion. She has tried over the last month to contact the IFA who keeps promising (via text messages) to 'drop off the paperwork' but fails to do so. The IFA works from home and doesn't have a registered business at present - hence our concerns.

I fear this is likely to end up getting messy, but wondered if anyone can advise if we can easily discover through the Land Registry if her house is in trust? Would a trust have to be documented with them, and her solicitor? Or is possible that an IFA could be the only person with relevant documentation?

xylophone

The IFA works from home and doesn't have a registered business at present - hence our concerns.

You are certain that this person is qualified and regulated?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt-and-money/financial-advice/getting-financial-advice/#:~:text=If a financial adviser is,see the Financial Services Register.

and she believes that she has placed her house in trust (to her main beneficiary) through him. However, she has no paperwork to support the existence either of the will, or of the trust.

This seems extremely strange.  Do you have Lasting Power of Attorney for your relative?

At all events, if you have an address for this person, perhaps you and your relative should pop round one morning....

Or ask the solicitor to write a formal letter of enquiry?

AlanF

Thanks for the that xylophone - yes, the IFA person is registered on that FSA register. Our relative says she has done a will with him, but doesn't have a copy, and the same regarding the trust.

We don't (yet) have LPA in place but will have in due course (paperwork with OPG, their waiting list is in excess of 20 weeks at present).

The visit to the IFA is what we are considering as next step -  but was just hoping we can bypass the hassle, if there is a way of doing so - and was hoping that any 'trust' against a property would have had to have been lodged with the Land Registry or deeds of the property - in which case solicitor should already be aware...

xylophone

Presumably you have checked the Land Registry?

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry

On-the-coast

If the trust only comes into existence at death per the terms of the current will, then the new will she’s having drawn up will supercede anything prior including the trust.  It would be very unusual for a trust to already be in existence - though not impossible. 

Marcon

AlanF said:

Hi, I don't know if this is the most appropriate forum to post on. Please signpost me if somewhere more appropriate!

It's a bit complicated, but in short an elderly immediate family member has possibly been taken advantage of by an IFA - someone who she trusts. She has limited comprehension and recollection of her discussions with him (but I'm sure she does have capacity). She believes she has a will, that she has done with him, and she believes that she has placed her house in trust (to her main beneficiary) through him. However, she has no paperwork to support the existence either of the will, or of the trust. She is widowed and lives alone and owns her house outright.

The first issue (the will) is a simple matter to address - she has already booked an appointment with a local solicitor (her 'usual' solicitor firm) in order that she can draw up a will.

However, my concern is that the solicitor is likely to want to discuss this with her as it would presumably form part of the will discussion. She has tried over the last month to contact the IFA who keeps promising (via text messages) to 'drop off the paperwork' but fails to do so. The IFA works from home and doesn't have a registered business at present - hence our concerns.

I fear this is likely to end up getting messy, but wondered if anyone can advise if we can easily discover through the Land Registry if her house is in trust? Would a trust have to be documented with them, and her solicitor? Or is possible that an IFA could be the only person with relevant documentation?

I wonder what she thinks this might achieve, or how the idea was 'sold' to her? I suspect the old chestnut of 'avoiding care home fees' (it won't) could have featured; ditto IHT (a trust could worsen the position because the residence nil rate band wouldn't be available, assuming she has a child/grandchild to whom she wished to leave it).

Top priority is to find out what's actually happened. It's quite possible nothing at all! Get her to sign a piece of paper authorising the IFA to talk directly to you and then have a chat with them.

squirrelpie

I know nothing about the subject but I typed are property trusts registered on the land registry into google and the results indicate that a trust may well not be registered. So I would suggest visiting the IFA pronto.

Yorkie1

My parents moved their house into a family protection trust, which meant that ownership was changed on the land registry. So it looks as though it may depend ,,, 

AlanF

Many thanks for the replies. We'll suggest to her that she authorises the IFA to speak to us to clarify what has happened.

AlanF

That's very helpful, thanks More Complicated - and xylophone earlier who also suggested checking Land Registry!

I have done just that, and the proprietership register has an entry from 2022 "Proprietor: XXX of (the residence address) the trustee of the xxx family trust". So it looks like our family member had indeed recalled correctly that her house is in trust. To answer Marcon's question earlier - she believed/was advised that it protected her beneficiaries (not me!) by removing the property from liability from future care costs. 

It also refers to a restriction listed on the link you sent - 

"RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court." Thanks for the link to the Practice Guide - I've had a look at section 2 but frankly got lost very quickly - in my defence the web site does say "Please note that HM Land Registry’s practice guides are aimed primarily at solicitors and other conveyancers. They often deal with complex matters and use legal terms." So, fortunately our family member has arranged to meet with the IFA at her home - we are invited to attend that meeting - so will attempt to ascertain what has gone on, and what the proposed benefits are - my understanding is that Local Authorites would regard placing a home into a trust as avoiding care home fees, so no benefit. If the IFA isn't forthcoming, then I guess we'll need to discuss with her solicitor. Again, I appreciate the forumites' support.

AlanF

Thanks again for that very comprehensive list of suggestions! In response to them:

1. I seriously doubt there was ever such an engagement letter. Certainly nothing our family member is aware of - the impression I get is all very casual - she says he's helped her as a favour as she's known him for a long time.

2. There has been some advice about investments - relatively straightforward about cash ISAs from what I gather.

3. See Q1 - I doubt anything exists. At the meeting I will ask if he has been acting officially as her IFA, and what documentation exists, particularly regarding the setting up of the trust.

The rest - clearly questions I need to ask the IFA. The family is a small one - and none of the family members have been involved in this process - so I think it's highly unlikely that there have been any tax returns, or registration, or indeed any active administration - including in setting up - other than by the IFA and the family member - whose memory is hazy. I think what the family member was advised was a simple way to protect her family is actually far from that!

I've prepared a list of questions to ask, and your thoughts have been very instrumental!