One Motorist has 11 NIPS(Apparently).This has to be wrong.Previous Scene of Accident !!

Mustbeananswer??

Confusion over speed limit ..its an interesting story.There is a group on Facebook for the full story and Petition to Sign ???

ElefantEd

Maybe a link and/or some more details here would be helpful so people can comment.

Goudy

This has been rumbling on for a while.

There is a stretch of the A20 Sidcup Bypass just outside Swanley that has had a lower speed restriction put on it.

It has been reduced from national speed limit to 40 mph because the road floods due to drainage problems and cars end up like this
Man taken to hospital after crash at BP petrol station off A20 Sidcup Bypass near McDonald's (kentonline.co.uk)

Work has yet to start on the drainage problems, that is due in May I believe, but you can guess the water that runs down the road makes this stretch of road pretty lethal.

Trouble started when someone, no one knows who, erected a small 50mph sign in the middle of this restricted stretch, to one side of the road.

So the (new) speed limit went 40mph, 50mph (by mistake) then 40mph until the end of the restriction and it reverted to national speed limit.

The speed restriction is covered by average speed cameras and a lot of users of this road has been getting fines.

The Police will not quash these fines as they state the incorrectly signed 50mpg was on only a small stretch of the restriction before the next 40mph sign.
(the 50 sign was just as the slip road off started before the services, the next 40 sign was just after the slip off ended, so a couple of hundred yards max)

They state because of this it should not have caused the average speed cameras to trigger, not unless the driver broke the 40 limit on the other parts of the restriction.

Not all of the restriction was marked 50mph, just a small stretch, the rest is clearly marked 40 mph.
I've been going through this road pretty regularly and haven't had anything through the post.
I don't think I will either as I haven't broken the limit.
I've done 40 where it said 40.
And 50 where it said 50.

I can say for certainty that this isn't always the case of everyone else.
Even this weekend, with all the publicity, drivers are still hammering through this stretch of road at national speed limit or at times, above that.

Mustbeananswer??

Support for a20 speed fines | Eddie Nestors producer has been in touch | Facebook

daveyjp

Any evidence yet of the average speeds they are receiving NIPs for?  If it's 48 in the false 50 section they may have an complaint, if its for over 50mph no sympathy.

Mustbeananswer??

daveyjp said:

Any evidence yet of the average speeds they are receiving NIPs for?  If it's 48 in the false 50 section they may have an complaint, if its for over 50mph no sympathy.

It appears the majority of the NIPS are for 46 - 50 ?? 

Grumpy_chap

Mustbeananswer?? said:

daveyjp said:

Any evidence yet of the average speeds they are receiving NIPs for?  If it's 48 in the false 50 section they may have an complaint, if its for over 50mph no sympathy.

It appears the majority of the NIPS are for 46 - 50 ?? 

Which sounds consistent with what the Police are reported to have said upthread.
If there is a long stretch of 40 mph and 200 yards (as indicated upthread) of 50 mph all within the average speed section, what would the average speed be measured as for a driver travelling at 40 mph in all the section apart from the 200 yards that were indicated at 50 mph?

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The "issue" is that the distance between the 50 and the next 40 sign is only 200 yards out of a much longer distance between average speed cameras.

The Police (rightly) say that if you were driving at 40 until you passed the 50 sign, then accelerated normally to 50 and slowed normally back to 40 before reaching the 40 sign your average speed would have been within the "do not prosecute" allowance.

The "problem" is that if you drive at 45 through the 40, (because you are "allowed" 10%+2mph), accelerate Tesla like to 55 as soon as you see the 50 sign, and then coast back down to 45 starting from when you pass the next 40, your average will be over the 46mph threshold for prosecution.

The "question" is whether that one errant 50 sign invalidates the entire 40 limit and therefore no prosecution is possible at any speed below NSL.

It needs someone with a lot of cash and the services of Mr Loophole to plead not guilty and get the limit declared invalid (if it is.....).

TooManyPoints

I know that area very well indeed and I’m well versed with this story. It's a bit lengthy but I urge you to read it. So first, the history:

The stretch in question is about 1.8 miles long. It stretches from “Crittals Corner” (the A20 junction with the A224) to the Kent/Greater London boundary, near to a BP/McDonalds service area. The new limit is only on the eastbound carriageway and, as the report says, it was imposed because the road has been prone to serious flooding. There have been a number of bad accidents and, for once, the speed limit was introduced genuinely for safety.

The stretch has never been 50mph. Before this change, eastbound the A20 was 50mph until a point towards the eastern end of the Crittals Corner flyover, after which it was National Speed Limit (NSL). Upon introduction of the new limit, NSL signs on the main carriageway at that point and on the slip road from Crittals Corner roundabout were replaced by normal sized "40" roundels.

The 40mph restriction was introduced in November 2023. Drivers heading east on the main A20 now see the limit reduce from 50 (which begins at Kemnal Manor Cemetery, about two miles to the west) to 40. Those joining via the slip road see it increase from 30 to 40. This new restriction was accompanied by large dot matrix signs warning of the new limit, both on the main carriageway and at the foot of the slip road. They were in place a couple of weeks either side of the introduction.

The rogue "50" sign was a good bit further along the e/b carriageway, almost at the end of the new 40 stretch, just before the BP/McDonalds service area at Upper Ruxley. It was just a few hundred yards from the end of the stretch, which is on the Greater London/Kent boundary. I couldn't be sure exactly when it appeared but it certainly was not there from the outset and I don't think it appeared much before Christmas. It was so far into the 40 stretch (which is enforced by an average speed system) that any driver travelling at 40mph before the rogue sign but at 50mph after it would average, over the entire stretch, no more than 43mph. I have done some calculations based on my rough estimate of the distances involved; the police have done a more accurate survey and my figure is almost the same as theirs.

Some of the press reports say that drivers allege that the rogue 50 sign was "left in place" after the change. That is not correct. It was not left in place because it was never there. There was never any requirement for a 50 sign (either terminal or repeaters) to be anywhere on that stretch. GSV images confirm that it was subject to NSL and the press reports back this up by saying that satnavs are "still showing the road at 70mph". The road was subject to NSL by virtue of being dual carriageway with no streetlighting (which ends about 300 yards east of the end of the flyover).

I have driven down that road many times since this story hit the streets. The last time was just three days ago. Even then, with all the recent publicity, large numbers of vehicles were passing me well in excess of 40mph, quite a few I would estimate way beyond 50 and quite a few even faster than that. Drivers were not "duped" by the rogue 50 sign because it did not appear until 90% of the stretch had been covered and now it has been removed anyway. My only explanation is that they either were not paying attention or they decided the limit did not apply to them. The rogue 50 sign had nothing to do with it. Incidentally, both the Facebook group and some of the press reports are accompanied by images of a "50" sign, none of which are of the rogue sign in question.

In the light of all this it is unsurprising that the Met have decided that drivers will not have their penalties rescinded:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84nqxvvq37o

For those who say this has been done by TfL for revenue purposes, TfL gain no revenue from speeding enforcement. Fees from awareness courses are split between the course provider and the police (roughly 2:1) and revenue from fixed penalties and fines go to the Exchequer. TfL’s only involvement was making the order which provides the new limit as they are responsible for the road up to the border with Kent.

Mustbeananswer??

Grumpy_chap said:

Mustbeananswer?? said:

daveyjp said:

Any evidence yet of the average speeds they are receiving NIPs for?  If it's 48 in the false 50 section they may have an complaint, if its for over 50mph no sympathy.

It appears the majority of the NIPS are for 46 - 50 ?? 

Which sounds consistent with what the Police are reported to have said upthread.
If there is a long stretch of 40 mph and 200 yards (as indicated upthread) of 50 mph all within the average speed section, what would the average speed be measured as for a driver travelling at 40 mph in all the section apart from the 200 yards that were indicated at 50 mph?

But you have to some sympathy for the folk in this area.They are not using the 50mph sign mentioned as a means of disputing the a NIPS.There is an estimated 63000 |(not confirmed) issued.Ordinary folk getting 4 (plus) losing their livelihood on what appears to be a technicality ??  

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Mustbeananswer?? said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Mustbeananswer?? said:

daveyjp said:

Any evidence yet of the average speeds they are receiving NIPs for?  If it's 48 in the false 50 section they may have an complaint, if its for over 50mph no sympathy.

It appears the majority of the NIPS are for 46 - 50 ?? 

Which sounds consistent with what the Police are reported to have said upthread.
If there is a long stretch of 40 mph and 200 yards (as indicated upthread) of 50 mph all within the average speed section, what would the average speed be measured as for a driver travelling at 40 mph in all the section apart from the 200 yards that were indicated at 50 mph?

But you have to some sympathy for the folk in this area.They are not using the 50mph sign mentioned as a means of disputing the a NIPS.There is an estimated 63000 |(not confirmed) issued.Ordinary folk getting 4 (plus) losing their livelihood on what appears to be a technicality ??  

It is 3 points for 50 in a 40.

I think it is more like an estimated 63000 people who might be able to "get off" a speeding ticket on a technicality........