Car lease company paid private parking company's parking charge & sent me the invoice to pay them.

Jenni_D

Jumblebumble said:

sjs2013 said:

born_again said:

sjs2013 said:

Looks like the CRA Section 69 is definitely going to help in this case. 

RE: the scam: The lease company doesn't have any additional benefits if they DON'T pay the PP but only give them the drivers details. They can still recoup their 'admin' fee from the lessee. So why do some lease companies pay them the 'fine'? Do the leaser & PP have some kind of under the desk arrangement to pay themselves the lessee's money?

Is there any authority who can investigate this matter? I'm sure there're fair few  people who have fallen for this. 

All you can do is go through their complaints process & then escalate to FOS. 
But even then FOS could rule in their favour.

I've complained to BVRLA already. They'll take about 30 days to process it. If BVRLA rules in their favour, can I still take the leaser to small claims court?

I reckon this case is fairly strong in my favour & what the leaser did is a serious malpractice affecting many motorists. I'll be very happy to spend some of my time + small amount of money to put a full stop on it.   

If you want to see how the BVRLA view this take a look at 
https://www.bvrla.co.uk/static/uploaded/61b3298b-a918-499b-9ac8b8bea2b726a0.pdf
Note the they unlike some of posters here clearly differentiate between parking offence and parking notice
I would reasonably assume that they interpret a  parking offence to be a criminal offence and a parking notice  is decriminalised
Therefore my take on this is that  you have not committed any offence that justifies the lease co recharging you

Bingo!  

Okell

@sjs2013 -  I'd suggest you go back to your hire company and put to them an argument based on four grounds: the one identified by @Jumblebumble re the view of BVRLA; together with the three other points in my earlier post (unfair term; haven't exercised reasonable care and skill; and the contra preferentem argument from Jenni_D and Fruitcake etc).

If they've already recharged you and they refuse to accept your argument for a refund, you'll have to decide if you want to sue them to get your money back*.  If you do, then Letter Before Claim etc etc

RefluentBeans

Okell said:

@sjs2013 -  I'd suggest you go back to your hire company and put to them an argument based on four grounds: the one identified by @Jumblebumble re the view of BVRLA; together with the three other points in my earlier post (unfair term; haven't exercised reasonable care and skill; and the contra preferentem argument from Jenni_D and Fruitcake etc).

If they've already recharged you and they refuse to accept your argument for a refund, you'll have to decide if you want to sue them to get your money back*.  If you do, then Letter Before Claim etc etc

To add to this - I think the argument should be based on the fact your rights were not protected, and that you dispute the parking notice/fine/offence/etc is not valid and that if you were invoices directly, you’d have disputed it. The issue will be whether the court will want to weigh in on if the parking fine was okay or whether it wasn’t valid. The term also seems unfair as they haven’t differentiated between parking charge notices from official bodies and the private firms. Whilst consumer rights have somewhat been eroded in this space recently, they are still two distinct categories and the private ones are a lot easier to shake (due to them just being, as the OP said, ‘speculative invoices’). 

I do also find it odd that the company would just pay out without querying it first. But then I don’t actually know how the system should work in better run companies. Do they just pass the fine on to you? Do they give you 48hours to respond and then pay by default and charge you? It’s not something I’ve really thought about, but it does seem that there is a clear conflict of interest here. 

After doing a quick Google - there are some specific pages to help you (and I’d also recommend posting on the motoring section here for more specific to your situation advice):
https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/company-lease-hire-cars/

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2009/5/28/question-private-parking-fines-fleets-urged/30698/

I don’t think this will be an easy battle - and it’s going to be choosing whether it’s this hill to die on, or just pay and begrudgingly put it behind the OP. Good luck OP! Be sure to keep us updated. 

sjs2013

RefluentBeans said:

Okell said:

@sjs2013 -  I'd suggest you go back to your hire company and put to them an argument based on four grounds: the one identified by @Jumblebumble re the view of BVRLA; together with the three other points in my earlier post (unfair term; haven't exercised reasonable care and skill; and the contra preferentem argument from Jenni_D and Fruitcake etc).

If they've already recharged you and they refuse to accept your argument for a refund, you'll have to decide if you want to sue them to get your money back*.  If you do, then Letter Before Claim etc etc

To add to this - I think the argument should be based on the fact your rights were not protected, and that you dispute the parking notice/fine/offence/etc is not valid and that if you were invoices directly, you’d have disputed it. The issue will be whether the court will want to weigh in on if the parking fine was okay or whether it wasn’t valid. The term also seems unfair as they haven’t differentiated between parking charge notices from official bodies and the private firms. Whilst consumer rights have somewhat been eroded in this space recently, they are still two distinct categories and the private ones are a lot easier to shake (due to them just being, as the OP said, ‘speculative invoices’). 

I do also find it odd that the company would just pay out without querying it first. But then I don’t actually know how the system should work in better run companies. Do they just pass the fine on to you? Do they give you 48hours to respond and then pay by default and charge you? It’s not something I’ve really thought about, but it does seem that there is a clear conflict of interest here. 

After doing a quick Google - there are some specific pages to help you (and I’d also recommend posting on the motoring section here for more specific to your situation advice):
https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/company-lease-hire-cars/

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2009/5/28/question-private-parking-fines-fleets-urged/30698/

I don’t think this will be an easy battle - and it’s going to be choosing whether it’s this hill to die on, or just pay and begrudgingly put it behind the OP. Good luck OP! Be sure to keep us updated. 

The complaint to BVRLA is based on below grounds:
1. Leaso Co's payment to PP deprived me from appeal.
2. The term is vague & doesn't cover PP scenario.
3. The admin fee is arbitrary & the amount is not in the terms.
4. Lease co breached BVRLA's memorandum of understanding. 

The lease co has paused the payment until BVRLA complaint is resolved. 

A few comments ago I posted relevant terms from another leaser - see this to get an idea of how better run companies are run.

born_again

sjs2013 said:

Shall we take a look at relevant terms from another leaser?



This leaser uses a more generic terms like fees, fines & liabilities. They specify an amount as admin fee for providing drivers details. They also specify a higher amount as admin fee for paying the liability if driver doesn't pay it. 

Can you link to the whole T/C as a small quoted piece can be missing other relevant parts.

You also mention
3. The admin fee is arbitrary & the amount is not in the terms.

What are the  admin charges in your linked piece of their T/C?

Admin fee's will be in line with FCA regulations & are no where near as much as Car Hire co's charge just to inform you of any penalty notice/Fine.

sjs2013

born_again said:

sjs2013 said:

Shall we take a look at relevant terms from another leaser?



This leaser uses a more generic terms like fees, fines & liabilities. They specify an amount as admin fee for providing drivers details. They also specify a higher amount as admin fee for paying the liability if driver doesn't pay it. 

Can you link to the whole T/C as a small quoted piece can be missing other relevant parts.

You also mention
3. The admin fee is arbitrary & the amount is not in the terms.

What are the  admin charges in your linked piece of their T/C?

Admin fee's will be in line with FCA regulations & are no where near as much as Car Hire co's charge just to inform you of any penalty notice/Fine.

The one you quoted above is from another leaser I had before the current one. I posted it as an example of how the better run companies do it. 

My issue is with my current leaser & their relevant term is posted in my first post. But here it's again:

All charges and legal costs for any congestion charge, road-traffic, parking offences or any other offence involving the rental vehicle, including costs from the vehicle being clamped, seized or towed away. You will accept that we will pay and recharge with a reasonable administration fee.

born_again

Where is the rest that may have the info in?

Hoenir

Okell said:

The lease company receive an "invoice" from a private parking company and without referring it to the OP or indeed without conducting any investigation at all into the validity of the invoice, they pay it and recharge the OP without giving him an opportunity to challenge it.  And they charge him an admin fee for doing so.

From the leasing companies perspective. How do they recoup the full cost of providing this administrative service to customers?  Easy to say not my problem. Pass the buck. Someone has to pay these costs though. 

Jumblebumble

Hoenir said:

Okell said:

The lease company receive an "invoice" from a private parking company and without referring it to the OP or indeed without conducting any investigation at all into the validity of the invoice, they pay it and recharge the OP without giving him an opportunity to challenge it.  And they charge him an admin fee for doing so.

From the leasing companies perspective. How do they recoup the full cost of providing this administrative service to customers?  Easy to say not my problem. Pass the buck. Someone has to pay these costs though. 

I think you may be mixing up the charging of an admin fee of say £25.00 which is ample to cover the admin costs of passing on the Ops name to a parking company and then the lease company have no further liability and the fact that the leasing company settled the "fine" which denied  the OP the right to appeal so if an incompetent parking company sent off the fine with the wrong index then the OP would have  been unfairly charged a speculative invoice for something  that had absolutely nothing to do with them
I certainly am not so naïve as to  believe that any invoice issued by a parking company is always going to be justified.

sjs2013

born_again said:

Where is the rest that may have the info in?

The lease co's name is replaced with ACME (as I don't want to disclose their name at this stage in a public forum).

Here it is:

Your contract with us

You accept the conditions set out in the rental agreement. Please read the agreement carefully.

Rental Period

You will have the vehicle for the period shown in the contract schedule agreement. We may agree to extend the

rental period, but the total rental will not be for more than 12 months, and no less than 1 month.

If you chose to return the vehicle before the minimum term you will be liable for the minimum rental term. In

addition, if the vehicle has been sourced on a pre-agreed fixed-term rental and is returned early, we reserve the

right to pass on any early termination fees.

If you do not bring back the vehicle on time, you will be breaking the conditions of the agreement. We can charge

you for every day or part of the day you have the vehicle after you should have returned it to us. We will charge

you a daily or hourly rate until we get our vehicle back.

If you break our agreement, we can ask you to return the vehicle before the date and time we have agreed with

you. To do so we will give you written notice to the address you have provided.

Once we have given you the notice, you will no longer have our permission to drive the vehicle. We may then

take back our vehicle. If we believe you have given us false information, we may take back the vehicle without

giving you any notice.

Your Responsibilities

You must inspect the vehicle and any accessories we provide before you take the vehicle. If you are not satisfied

with the vehicle you must let us know immediately.

You must look after the vehicle, any accessories and the keys or locking device. You must make sure that you

that you use the correct type of fuel and fluids in the vehicle.

You are responsible for any damage to the vehicle, excluding fair wear and tear in line with the BVRLA

guidelines. You agree to pay our reasonable costs for bringing the vehicle back to the condition as stated on the

proof of delivery note.

You must not sell, rent or dispose of the vehicle or any of its parts. You must not give or try to give anyone the

legal rights to the vehicle or transfer legal ownership.

You must not let anyone work on the vehicle without our written permission.

You must let us know as soon as you become aware of any fault with the vehicle, or if the vehicle is stolen or

involved in an accident.

If we have agreed to drop off the vehicle at an address you give us, you will be responsible for the vehicle from

the time we deliver.

Smoking/vaping is not permitted in our vehicles.

You are required to give us the mileage of the vehicle on the 1st March and 1st September.

Our Responsibilities

The vehicle is roadworthy and suitable for you to use at the start of the rental period.

Property

You are responsible for removing any personal belongings from the vehicle at the end of the rental period. We

accept no responsibility for items you leave in the vehicle. In the event of leaving items in the vehicle, we may

agree to keep them for you to collect within a reasonable time. You may be charged a reasonable cost for the

storage of these items.

Conditions for using the vehicle

Anyone driving the vehicle must hold a full valid driving licence which is valid in the European Economic Area for

the type of vehicle you are renting.

You must not rent the vehicle to anyone else.

You must not make use of any integrated services including app connectivity without prior written agreement. We

reserve the right to charge you for removing your personal information from the vehicle.

license for).

You are not permitted to use this vehicle for driving lessons.

You are not permitted to use the vehicle for racing, pace making, or to test the vehicle reliability or speed.

You are not permitted to take the vehicle off road or on roads unsuitable for the vehicle.

You are not permitted to take the vehicle outside the United Kingdom, unless we have given you written

permission and vehicle on hire certificate.

You are not permitted to drive the vehicle if it is loaded beyond the manufacturers maximum weight

recommendations.

You are not permitted to carry unsecured loads

You are not permitted to carry more passengers than the vehicle was manufactured to legally carry, or if the

Charges

You will be responsible for paying the following charges:

The rental and excess pence per mile charges as agreed.

Any charge for loss or damage resulting from you not keeping to your responsibilities as set out above.

Any charge for damage or deficiencies to body and paintwork, glass, interior and exterior trim, or wheels and

abuse.

All charges and legal costs for any congestion charge, road-traffic, parking offences or any other offence

involving the rental vehicle, including costs from the vehicle being clamped, seized or towed away. You will

accept that we will pay and recharge with a reasonable administration fee.

The reasonable cost of repairing any damage to the vehicle that was not noted at the start of the agreement.

Any recovery charges arising from the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA). HM Revenue & Customs

(HMRC), police, or any other public authorization (or agent) who has seized the vehicle. You accept you will be

responsible for paying us the loss of income charge while we cannot rent out the vehicle.

Any published rates for delivering and collecting the vehicle.

Interest, which we will add every day to any amount you do not pay us on time, at the rate of 4% a year above

the base lending rate as published by Barclays Bank. We will publish this rate from time to time.

Rentals are invoiced every 28 days resulting in 13 invoices being issues in one calendar year. You will

potentially receive two invoices in one calendar month due to the billing cycle.

Your own Insurance

You must arrange your own motor insurance to cover your legal responsibility for any loss, or if the vehicle is

stolen or damaged, for the full period you are renting the vehicle for. We may ask your insurers to record our

name as owner of the vehicle.

Such insurance must be Fully Comprehensive to the full replacement value of the vehicle.

You shall duly and punctually pay all premiums necessary for such insurance and produce every such policy

receipt for premiums and certificate of insurance to ACME Limited.

If the vehicle is damaged or stolen, we will negotiate any settlement for loss or damage with your insurers, and

we will receive any money they pay out.

You are responsible for paying the full claims and paying all costs if the policy you have arranged fails and the

vehicle is damaged, lost or stolen, or someone else makes a claim.

What to do if you have an accident or the vehicle is stolen

If you are involved in an accident, you must report this immediately to your insurer and call ACME as soon

as possible. You should describe the situation as fully as possible when you are asked to do so. You should get

the names and addresses of everyone involved, including witnesses.

Data Protection GDPR

Data Protection

The expressions below have the following respective meanings:

Kingdom, as the same may be amended, superseded, replaced or updated from time to time, including any

national implementing laws, regulations or other secondary legislation relating to the processing of Personal Data

and the privacy of electronic communications, including the General Data Protection Regulation (EU) 2016/679;

unauthorised disclosure of or access to Personal Data being processed, used or stored

Use of Data

ACME and you shall each comply with all applicable requirements of the Data Protection Legislation.

The parties acknowledge that, for the purposes of the Data Protection Legislation, ACME is the data

processor and you are the data controller.

The provisions of this Clause are in addition to, and are neither in substitution for or replacement of, the

respective obligation of the parties under the Data Protection Legislation.

ACME shall, in relation to any Personal Data processed, used or stored by it in the performance of its

obligations under this Agreement:

Process, use and store that Personal Data solely for the purpose of performing its obligations under this

Agreement provided that ACME shall be permitted to process, use and store the Personal Data for other

purposes where it is required to do so by law;

Ensure that it has in place appropriate technical and organisational measures to protect against unauthorised or

unlawful processing, use and storage of Personal Data and accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to,

Personal Data, appropriate to the harm that might reasonably be expected to result from such unlawful or

unauthorised processing, storage, use, loss or damage and the nature of the data to be protected, having regard

to the state of technological development and the cost of implementing any measures;

Use reasonable endeavours to ensure that all of its employees, officers, workers, agents, representatives and

sub-contractors and the employees, officers and workers of such agents, representatives and sub-contractors

keep the Personal Data confidential;

Not transfer any Personal Data to a country outside the European Economic Area except to the extent that such

transfer is permissible under the Data Protection Legislation;

Assist you, at your reasonable cost, to respond to any request from a data subject in exercise of that data

Notify you promptly upon becoming aware of any Security Incident;

Upon your written request, or upon the termination of the contract, promptly delete any Personal Data and copies

thereof held by it or return them to you, save to the extent that ACME is permitted or obliged by law to

retain any of them; and

Maintain adequate and up-to-date records and information in order to demonstrate compliance by it with its

obligations under this Clause 2.

ACME will maintain and comply with a Privacy Policy in respect of Personal Data, without limiting its right to

vary the provisions of that Privacy Policy at any time at its discretion.

A copy of the current version of ACME’s Privacy Policy is attached.

You consent to ACME appointing sub-processors of any Personal Data, subject to ACME entering

into with any sub-processor a written agreement incorporating obligations upon the sub-processor which are

similar in all material respects to the obligations upon ACME contained in this Clause 2. As between ACME and you, ACME

shall be and remain liable for all acts or omissions of any sub-processor appointed

by it pursuant to this Clause 2.

Jurisdiction

This Agreement will be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of England and Wales. The

English Courts will have exclusive jurisdiction to settle any disputes or claims that may arise out of or in

connection with the Agreement for which purpose all parties agree to submit to such jurisdiction.

SIGNED for and behalf of

By the following duly authorised signatory:

HIRER

_____________________

(Signature)

_____________________

(Name)

_____________________

(Position)

SIGNED for and behalf of

ACME LIMITED

By the following duly authorised signatory:

_____________________

(Signature)

_____________________

(Name)

_____________________

(Position)