RTS Switch Off

inspectorperez

I know there are a number of threads on this subject and if appropriate, I wonder if the site moderators might link this post to the definitive thread on the subject if there is one.

What caught my attention was an article in today's MoneyMail by Sam Barker. Quite an interesting read although it doesn't really add much to the subject matter which has already been contributed on this website by forum members who know what they are talking about.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/comment/article-13083629/Does-energy-supply-depend-old-BBC-radio-tower-Droitwich.html?ico=mol_desktop_money-newtab&molReferrerUrl=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/index.html

There was however what I thought was an interesting comment by one of the Mail readers which I thought was worthy of mentioning with a view to attracting responses or views from those interested in this subject.

"It is possible to buy an Iskra ME162 Single Phase Economy 7 Meter for 45 quid. This has an internal clock and does not need a radio signal. The idea that alternatives for obsolete meters are not available is nonsense."

The reader concerned has a profile name of "Pound Life" from Ermine East and for all I know may be one of the contributors to this website.

QrizB

inspectorperez said:

There was however what I thought was an interesting comment by one of the Mail readers which I thought was worthy of mentioning with a view to attracting responses or views from those interested in this subject.

"It is possible to buy an Iskra ME162 Single Phase Economy 7 Meter for 45 quid. This has an internal clock and does not need a radio signal. The idea that alternatives for obsolete meters are not available is nonsense."

The reader concerned has a profile name of "Pound Life" from Ermine East and for all I know may be one of the contributors to this website.

He or she is likely to be correct.

However for public policy reasons, the UK Government and Ofgem have directed that all suitable domestic supplies are to be switched to smart meters, and has set energy suppliers targets for the number of smart meters among their customers. Failing to hit targets will incur fines.

The availability of alternative meters is not a factor in this direction.

Phones4Chris

"Thisismoney" is part of the Mail group, and most of their "tech" articles are poorly written, not clear, often written by people with little or no technical knowledge and can often leave the wrong impression.
The "last minute" decision wasn't actually that last minute iirc!

inspectorperez

Phones4Chris said:

"Thisismoney" is part of the Mail group, and most of their "tech" articles are poorly written, not clear, often written by people with little or no technical knowledge and can often leave the wrong impression.
The "last minute" decision wasn't actually that last minute iirc!

I agree. But to me the interesting point was contained within the readers' responses highlighting another option which if true could arguably be of some relevance for those who for one reason or another are unable to have functional smart meters installed.

Xbigman

The problem with internal clocks controlling E7 times is that they drift out of alignment over time. That was the whole point of an externally controlled system in the first place. Smart meters meet the criteria for external time control so they are the obvious 1st choice to replace the RTS signal meters. 


Darren

dunstonh

"It is possible to buy an Iskra ME162 Single Phase Economy 7 Meter for 45 quid. This has an internal clock and does not need a radio signal. The idea that alternatives for obsolete meters are not available is nonsense."

Many E7 devices have relied on timers for decades.    Many E7 meters are not RTS based but timer based.  So, timer based devices are not uncommon.

We had two conventional digital meters prior to our smart meter was installed (2015 replaced in 2019).  Both suffered time drift.  Every month when reading the meter I had to check the time and adjust the clocks.  It wasn't a slight drift of a minute here or there, but suddenly, it would !!!!!! hours.  The smart meter hasn't drifted, but I believe they periodically resync the time from a time server.

masonic

dunstonh said:

"It is possible to buy an Iskra ME162 Single Phase Economy 7 Meter for 45 quid. This has an internal clock and does not need a radio signal. The idea that alternatives for obsolete meters are not available is nonsense."

Many E7 devices have relied on timers for decades.    Many E7 meters are not RTS based but timer based.  So, timer based devices are not uncommon.

We had two conventional digital meters prior to our smart meter was installed (2015 replaced in 2019).  Both suffered time drift.  Every month when reading the meter I had to check the time and adjust the clocks.  It wasn't a slight drift of a minute here or there, but suddenly, it would !!!!!! hours.  The smart meter hasn't drifted, but I believe they periodically resync the time from a time server.

This is why any consumer-controlled addon device is a complete non-starter. Lots of incentive now for the dishonest to get daytime energy at night rates through tampering or inaction. Whereas smart meters use network-based time syncronisation and would be near impossible to fiddle.

Gerry1

Unfortunately the Iskra ME162 is not a 5-terminal device.

If replacing an RTS used for switching E7 circuits then a contactor would also be required.

Qyburn

inspectorperez said:

"It is possible to buy an Iskra ME162 Single Phase Economy 7 Meter for 45 quid. This has an internal clock and does not need a radio signal. The idea that alternatives for obsolete meters are not available is nonsense."

Economy 7 is the easiest one to fix. More complex tariffs like THTC don't seem to have any solution even in the planning stage. Even Economy 10 doesn't seem to be widely supported.

So it's simply untrue to claim there is no issue with RTS switch off, just because E7 meters exist.

Gerry1

Being devil's advocate for a moment, it could be argued that there's less demand for tariffs such as E10 and THTC because of improvements in the performance of NSHs.

1970s' NSHs were of relatively low capacity, had poor insulation and very primitive temperature control (usually just a bimetallic strip controlling a flap).  In cold weather they'd be cool in the evening.  Consumer items were expensive but electricity was cheap as chips so the three-hour afternoon boost was the solution.

Much the same applied to electric underfloor heating.  This was popular with councils because of low capital and maintenance costs, especially in high rise blocks where gas was not provided following the Ronan Point disaster.

The introduction of High Heat Retention NSHs with clever electronic programmers, much better insulation higher capacity and fan operation meant that satisfactory performance could be obtained with E7.  High room temperatures are not required overnight so the energy wasted is no longer acceptable with the much higher cost of electricity today.

Presumably the suppliers have decided that they're not interested in a declining market, so E10 and suchlike are going the same way as red phone boxes, the Phone Book, leaded petrol, the milkman and the bus conductor.

Scot_39

There is a very good reason that tariffs like E10 should exist.


And that's simply not everyone has a few £1000  lying around to upgrade to the latest generation night storage heaters.

And in many cases - many will be dependent on landlords to do so - private, housing association and council - sone of whom simply will not spend the money - and if do - will up rent to cover costs of work.

It's OK for middle class home owners on good incomes - like our MPs - to push things on society like green obligations or tariff simplifications and try to deny others on the basis of "it's progress" - but unless others are going to be helped along the way - its just not economically viable for n all likelihood millions.

And with some suppliers non fixed time of use E7 - so RTS and other legacy meters still represents a large fraction of their customer basis.

And Ofgem simply isn't in my opinion doing enough to protect those on complex restricted metering schemes - E7 and SR are not enough options for many.

Despite itself acknowledging many are classed as vulnerable users.

And even E7 is frowned upon by some as a dead tariff.

And some complex schemes  - like those with 3 home circuits for instance - have at last reports from likes of S Power - still no smart single meter solution available.  Whole rows of new builds in off gas grid areas in parts of Scotland were built and internally wired on the existence of such schemes.


And in this day of grid peak  demand reduction schemes - arguably an even better reason for time slotted E10 schemes like mine to exist - that have afternoon and evening slots at off peak before and after peak demand time - and charge peak 4-8pm - so act as a daily incentive to load shift out of daily peaks.  And because they are fixed times - easy to adopt routine too.

And smart meters can support E10 - as mine does - the basic spec allows for multiple periods of off peak billing and ALCS switching - and multiple rate registers to charge at appropriate rates.  E10 bilking itself easy enough on 1/2 hourly data - but many will still rely on ALCS switching meters.

Thee are c4m off gas grid homes - over 2m on E7 and 100,000s of others on often legacy restricted metering or potentially variable time slot RTS schemes.

Last count Ive seen 750,000 were still on RTS meters.

We are not talking the odd one or two here - but a very healthy potential customer base to market to.

How many cars sell that many models in UK spec per annum for instance.  That's right NONE. Yet manufacturers compete to sell less than 50,000 units per year in case of market leaders - built in full UK RH drive and trim / equipment specs , in UK last year.

It's a lack of enforced support not demand that sees these tariffs dwindle.

An energy regulator that doesn't even know - and admits so - how many profile class 2 meters are used in all electric homes for heating - isn't one that arguably can or should be trusted to regulate domestic contract options for them.