Claim back cost of work carried out by a garage

pjs493

Mr.Generous said:

It’s been looked at by the call out team from the main dealer garage for the brand of car I have and they’ve suggested it is immobiliser and was never the starter motor at all. The car is now at the main dealer and they’re going to do a diagnostic check in the next few days.

So they don't know yet either and have just guessed? Diagnostic checks don't always find the problem, and sometimes a number of components are changed by main dealers in an attempt to pinpoint a problem. Out of interest did they give the car back saying "There you go, new starter motor, no change it still won't go - that's £500 please" or was it working. Intermittent faults can be a !!!!!!.

It wouldn’t start when I collected it until one of the mechanics faffed about under the bonnet for half an hour and never started again after that. 

The main dealer mobile mechanic did a diagnostic on the car on my driveway and said it was the immobiliser. They redid the diagnostics at the dealership. 

pjs493

oldagetraveller1 said:

When you write "My car wouldn’t start so I called the AA.", did the engine turn over by the starter motor and not run, or did nothing happen?

My, possibly incorrect, understanding is that if it is the immobiliser, the starter will turn the engine over but it will not fire up?

It could probably help the more knowledgeable posters if the make/model/year of car was divulged.

If nothing happened then I would initially suspect a failing starter motor too. Which in no way is trying to excuse the garage fitting it without carrying out a proper diagnosis.

The first time I turned the key it turned but it didn’t start. The next time it wouldn’t turn at all in the barrel. I then tried to jump it with both a jump pack and using a donor car but nothing happened. As the dealer explained to me point A is the key, point B is the battery, point C is the immobiliser, and point D is the starter motor. Replacing D doesn’t resolve B or C. Exploring these or other factors should have been their first go to after running diagnostics. The dealer said the garage should also have explored further when I went back to reception to tell them my car wouldn’t start rather than doing something under the bonnet and sending me on my way trying to blame battery drain. The dealer said an issue with the immobiliser would mean the car wouldn’t do anything (which was the case), if it was the starter there would have been some attempt by the car to crank or turn over. As it turns out the garage didn’t bother running diagnostics. It’s a 2004 Range Rover. 

pjs493

Olinda99 said:

this is a subset of the often reported problem that I called someone out because x wasn't working and they replaced y but it wasn't necessary it was an incorrect diagnosis

for me, you would have to prove the garage was negligent or in some way unprofessional because unless you have a crystal ball you have to go replacing things until you find the fault. 

it sounds like any reasonable mechanic would assume from the symptoms that it was a faulty starter motor. you could ask them to put the old one back but you would still be liable for the labour etc of replacing it originally and then putting the old one back again.

it's all about what a reasonable professional qualified competent mechanic would reasonably do in the circumstances presented to them - not whether they get it exactly right every time.

I asked them for the starter motor back (after all it was mine) but they said they didn’t have it any more. They eventually admitted they didn’t run diagnostics. 

It seems they didn’t do the job properly and then tried to cover it up but got caught out with lies and then refused to return the ‘faulty’ item because they didn’t have it any more. They also tried to argue that the main dealer (who fixed my car) was wrong in their diagnosis and ultimate resolution, even though they managed to fix the car when the original garage didn’t. 

Their mechanic who fiddled about under the bonnet apparently did something to by-pass the immobiliser to get my car started, claimed the battery might be low to get me out of the car park, and my car wouldn’t start again when I got it home. 

pjs493

born_again said:

Crux here is. Did the car start & run after they put a new starter motor on?

No it didn’t. Not until one of their mechanics faffed about under the bonnet for ages and apparently by-passed the immobiliser to get it started. It never started again after that. 

Altior

Not really referencing the chargeback, more the problem itself. These types of issues are notoriously difficult to troubleshoot without prior knowledge, it's spilt milk now but you really need a mechanics that you have built up a long relationship with, or a specialist. Definitely with this type of vehicle. A generic garage are not going to spend hours on it for 'free' and will simply start to change things that seem most likely to be the cause until it's resolved. 

I don't think here what I read confirms the mechanic was sure that the starter motor was the culprit, but they thought it might be, and asked you if you wanted to go ahead. So it hinges on whether that implied an agreement the issue would then be guaranteed to be fixed. I'm not sure that it was from how the story has been relayed. 

I had a used 'prestige' car in the past, and by far the best resource is specialist car forums. I had a limited edition Golf that used to feel unstable at high speed, a mechanic I trusted and he admitted that he could swap some things but it might not resolve the issue, and put me in touch with a mechanic he knew that had specialist golf GTi knowledge. In the end it turned out to need a new gearbox. Whilst it was a very expensive repair. I saved some money in not having things done that wouldn't have resolved the underlying issue.

I don't know exactly what model your vehicle is, but I googled the info that has been posted here and found this. So the BCM is a possibility, for example. 

2004 Alarm / Immobiliser Problem | Land Rover UK Forums (lrukforums.com)

Where I do find fault with the mechanic is if they told you it was starting on demand and ready to collect. When evidently that was not the case, as the starter motor replacement didn't resolve the underlying problem, so sounds like they did a bodge to get rid of you. One senses that this may need an independent review of the facts, claims and counter claims eventually to be settled.

pjs493

Altior said:

Not really referencing the chargeback, more the problem itself. These types of issues are notoriously difficult to troubleshoot without prior knowledge, it's spilt milk now but you really need a mechanics that you have built up a long relationship with, or a specialist. Definitely with this type of vehicle. A generic garage are not going to spend hours on it for 'free' and will simply start to change things that seem most likely to be the cause until it's resolved. 

I don't think here what I read confirms the mechanic was sure that the starter motor was the culprit, but they thought it might be, and asked you if you wanted to go ahead. So it hinges on whether that implied an agreement the issue would then be guaranteed to be fixed. I'm not sure that it was from how the story has been relayed. 

I had a used 'prestige' car in the past, and by far the best resource is specialist car forums. I had a limited edition Golf that used to feel unstable at high speed, a mechanic I trusted and he admitted that he could swap some things but it might not resolve the issue, and put me in touch with a mechanic he knew that had specialist golf GTi knowledge. In the end it turned out to need a new gearbox. Whilst it was a very expensive repair. I saved some money in not having things done that wouldn't have resolved the underlying issue.

I don't know exactly what model your vehicle is, but I googled the info that has been posted here and found this. So the BCM is a possibility, for example. 

2004 Alarm / Immobiliser Problem | Land Rover UK Forums (lrukforums.com)

Where I do find fault with the mechanic is if they told you it was starting on demand and ready to collect. When evidently that was not the case, as the starter motor replacement didn't resolve the underlying problem, so sounds like they did a bodge to get rid of you. One senses that this may need an independent review of the facts, claims and counter claims eventually to be settled.

When the garage took the car into its care, I asked them to fix it (because I didn’t know what was wrong with it and wanted to get it back on the road). They called to say they’d ran diagnostics and determined it was the starter motor. They gave me an estimate and asked if I was happy with the price and happy for them to proceed. I was, on the basis that they had indeed correctly identified the issue and the quote was to fix the car. 

I hadn’t used the garage before. My husband recently died and the place we used to take the car to is quite some distance away. With two young children and the logistics of having to collect the car when it was fixed from our usual place, I took recommendations from friends and neighbours which is why I picked the garage I did. It also appeared to have a good reputation online and is an AA and RAC approved garage which I thought meant they could be trusted. 

When they called to tell me the car was ready to collect, I was specifically told that one of the mechanics had taken it out for a ‘road test’ and it was working properly. I certainly didn’t expect it to not start when I went to collect it. They seemed keen to get the car going to get me out of there. At the time I thought they were just trying to help me out and not take up too much of my time. At one point three guys were fiddling about under the bonnet trying to get it to start. They mumbled something a couple of times about dodgy jump leads, but I feel now that that was a bit of a diversion because they figured out they hadn’t fixed it properly and just wanted me gone. This fits with them refusing to take it back when I called to complain. 

Clearly they thought they could do a quick fix and bodge it, rather than take the time to do things properly. I may have mentioned in an earlier post that I’d had a call from the garage around close of business the day before I collected the car to say they might not get to it before the weekend. I said that was fine as I could manage a few days without the car. So I was surprised when I got a call around 0930 the following morning to let me know the car had been fixed and was ready. This also raises a concern of mine that I was charged for 2 1/2 hours of labour. Replacing the starter on a 2004 Range Rover shouldn’t take that long for a trained mechanic with access to all the right tools. Obviously running diagnostics takes a little time, but it turns out they didn’t bother doing that either. They clearly charged me for more hours than they worked on the car. One of the mechanics said it was fixed in the car park and didn’t actually go inside the garage building. 

Altior

Sorry, I don't want to be 'nit picky', but They called to say they’d ran diagnostics and determined it was the starter motor. is a little different to:

I asked the garage to take a look at the car. They called me the next day and told me they also thought it was the starter motor, gave me a quote over the phone, and asked if I was happy for them to proceed. I said I was (on the assumption they knew what they were doing and had correctly diagnosed the issue and I was happy with the price quoted).

At the end of the day, this is a verbal agreement and (unless in the unlikely event the call was recorded), whether they were definitive that it actually was the starter motor for certain, or thought it was most likely, and asked you if they should go ahead, can never be proven either way.

To be clear I'm not saying you did anything wrong here, but diagnosing issues with reasonably modern cars is not always straight forward, especially potential electrical issues, even for experienced mechanics. And sometimes it is somewhat trial and error, and legitimately parts can be replaced that don't end up resolving the underlying issue. It's just human nature that you'd likely get a different level of service with a mechanics you've had regular work done with over a long period of time, vs dropped a non starting car off at their premises at the beginning of the relationship. Again, there's no fault here but in my view should be recognised as a mitigating factor. There's no excuse for bodging it to get rid of you though, but whether they should be liable for the authorised work that was completed is not clear cut I don't feel. 

pjs493

Altior said:

Sorry, I don't want to be 'nit picky', but They called to say they’d ran diagnostics and determined it was the starter motor. is a little different to:

I asked the garage to take a look at the car. They called me the next day and told me they also thought it was the starter motor, gave me a quote over the phone, and asked if I was happy for them to proceed. I said I was (on the assumption they knew what they were doing and had correctly diagnosed the issue and I was happy with the price quoted).

At the end of the day, this is a verbal agreement and (unless in the unlikely event the call was recorded), whether they were definitive that it actually was the starter motor for certain, or thought it was most likely, and asked you if they should go ahead, can never be proven either way.

To be clear I'm not saying you did anything wrong here, but diagnosing issues with reasonably modern cars is not always straight forward, especially potential electrical issues, even for experienced mechanics. And sometimes it is somewhat trial and error, and legitimately parts can be replaced that don't end up resolving the underlying issue. It's just human nature that you'd likely get a different level of service with a mechanics you've had regular work done with over a long period of time, vs dropped a non starting car off at their premises at the beginning of the relationship. Again, there's no fault here but in my view should be recognised as a mitigating factor. There's no excuse for bodging it to get rid of you though, but whether they should be liable for the authorised work that was completed is not clear cut I don't feel. 

I’ve put a very detailed account of events forward to the credit card company and await their decision. In my view the garage was tasked with fixing my car. They failed to do that but charged me for work that wasn’t required. They also refused to do remedial work or return the part they replaced which could have either provided evidence for my case or helped their’s. An independent garage has stated that the issue laid elsewhere. 

My view is that by refusing to return the part (well they actually claimed they no longer had it) they were somewhat obstructive. They also changed their story multiple times regarding whether diagnostics were carried out or not, one mechanic said he’d inspected the car while it was up on the lift inside the garage while another told me he fixed it in the car park. They couldn’t get their story straight. 

Refusing to do remedial work and refusing the take the car back made me think that they just didn’t want to do the work and would rather stick to easy jobs and MOTs (which are likely their bread and butter).

I’ll wait to see what the credit card company decide. If I don’t get a refund I’ve lost £500 for work that didn’t need doing on my car, if the amount is refunded the whole episode can be put behind me. It’s all down to the CC company now. 

born_again

TBF. A starter motor are usually exchange items, so the old one is sent off to be refurbished. So they will not have the old one.

pjs493

As an update, my CC company refunded the money to me. I received an email stating that the garage may give me a refund, in which case the credit from the CC company will be reversed for obvious reasons. 

The email also stated that if I don’t hear anything more by June I can consider the matter closed. They may also write to me for more information if they need it, presumably if the garage puts in a counter dispute.