Tiler used wrong adhesive and floor needs to be redone

clp10

If a job needs to be redone due to poor workmanship/wrong materials used, am I liable for any costs? Including those of the correct materials I purchased, which cannot be reused for redoing the job, and the costs of replacing all of these to get the job done correctly (so I’m not paying twice for everything). And can I get back any part payment I’d made to the tiler so far?

Kitchen floor retiling. I purchased tiles, grout and adhesive from tile shop. More than sufficient amounts of each. 

Tiler agreed to remove (but not dispose) old tiles, level floor, install new tiles, 2-3 days. 

Day 5, still not finished, I receive a request for another full box of tiles, and payment for an extra 6 bags of adhesive the tiler had purchased themselves. Tile shop calculated I’d need 40 kg/ 2 bags, and the tiler has bought an additional 6 bags/120kg! 9m2 kitchen!

I had no idea he’d run out. Turns out he’d used it instead of leveller. But, most importantly, the adhesive is not compatible with the porcelain tiles (for ceramic), and on taking advice from the manufacturer and another tiler the tiles all need to come up and be put down with the correct adhesive. 

I’ve put everything on hold. 

In addition to this on seeking advice not only should the tiler have used leveller on the floor, he should also have used boarding at points because now I will be left with gaps by skirting boards/kickboards as previous tiles were much thicker. The tiles also have a pattern, and he has not ‘joined’ this pattern through the room. 

I’ve lost faith in the ‘tiler’ and want to get someone else in to do the job properly. 

Can I get back the part payment I’ve made to him so far? This was for removing the old tiles? Given the sheer inconvenience of being over a week without a kitchen and him not being able to do the job. 

I purchased the correct adhesive, and the tiles and grout- obviously the adhesive is all used up, some of the grout has been used, and I’m unclear whether any of the tiles can be saved, and even so I’ll definitely have to purchase more. All these products/materials were expensive- do I have to rebuy them or can I request the tiler to, given it’s his fault?

many thanks 

Alderbank

You say:
I purchased tiles, grout and adhesive...
most importantly, the adhesive is not compatible with the porcelain tiles..
I purchased the correct adhesive and tiles...

Can you clarify how all these statements are true?

Also,
the tiles all need to come up...
The tiles also have a pattern, and he has not ‘joined’ this pattern through the room.

If the tiles all need to come up why does it matter what pattern they are currently laid in?

eskbanker

Alderbank said:

You say:
I purchased tiles, grout and adhesive...
most importantly, the adhesive separately purchased by the tiler is not compatible with the porcelain tiles..
I purchased the correct adhesive and tiles...

Can you clarify how all these statements are true?

The added bolded wording makes them logically consistent!

Alderbank

Thanks for that, @eskbanker.
I thought ...and the tiler has bought an additional 6 bags just meant he had bought 6 more bags of the same stuff!

eskbanker

Alderbank said:

Thanks for that, @eskbanker.
I thought ...and the tiler has bought an additional 6 bags just meant he had bought 6 more bags of the same stuff!

There was quite a sizable clue in the thread title!

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

clp10 said:

Can I get back the part payment I’ve made to him so far? This was for removing the old tiles? 

Hello OP

If you've only paid him for removing the old tiles and that has been done then he's been paid appropriately thus far.

For the rest of the job you can seek a price reduction, all services must be carried out with due care and skill so if what has been done doesn't meet this and needs to be redone then generally payment for that aspect isn't due.

In terms of correcting the job and materials, this would be a claim for damages AFAIK, your claim wouldn't be for what you have already spent but rather what you do spend to correct the work. 

For both services and damages, again AFAIK, burden of proof lies upon yourself, if you both agreed to walk away without the tiler being paid any further that would cover you not paying for substandard work carried out. 

If the tiler didn't agree he'd have to take you to small claims to recover this money and, again AFAIK, it would be for him to prove his work was up to scratch. 

If he agrees to cover the costs of work being redone happy days but if not you'd be looking at getting the work inspected by someone independent, having the work done again and then claiming your extra costs over the original price of the job. 

Worth a note, whether another tiler/builder/tradesperson looking for work is classed as independent could be a grey area as it could be argued their opinion is bias to secure a job. 

The advice from the manufacturer regarding the adhesive should be good and whilst you may have purchased this, due care and skill means the trader should have either insisted on the correct materials or not taken the job. 

As a last thought on this generally you should require a repeat performance before a price reduction, what are the tilers thoughts on taking up the tiles, redoing it all correctly for no extra fee (including new materials) above the original quote? If he is refusing to do this then that would spare you the repeat performance aspect and allow you to move to price reduction.

clp10 said:

I had no idea he’d run out. Turns out he’d used it instead of leveller. But, most importantly, the adhesive is not compatible with the porcelain tiles (for ceramic), and on taking advice from the manufacturer and another tiler the tiles all need to come up and be put down with the correct adhesive. 

he should also have used boarding at points because now I will be left with gaps by skirting boards/kickboards as previous tiles were much thicker. The tiles also have a pattern, and he has not ‘joined’ this pattern through the room. 

One point on this, not a tiling expert although have done some at home, leveller is presumably ideal but in terms of cost I'm not sure there's much in it (the leveller might be more expensive given the convenience factor) and as an amateur opinion I don't think adhesive filling unlevel portions is a problem.

As you mention the entire floor is too low due to the difference in thickness of the tiles I would assume you can remove the tiles, leave what ever adhesive remains stuck to the floor and tile over the top at the correct height rather than having to take up all the adhesive and use leveller instead. 

Might be worth a post on a tilers forum such as this

https://uktilingforum.com/

(seems to be many others but this come up first) to get an idea of the best method of correcting the work so if/when you hire someone else to correct the work at least you'll know if what they are telling you is in the right area. 

Jumblebumble

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

clp10 said:

Can I get back the part payment I’ve made to him so far? This was for removing the old tiles? 

Hello OP

If you've only paid him for removing the old tiles and that has been done then he's been paid appropriately thus far.

For the rest of the job you can seek a price reduction, all services must be carried out with due care and skill so if what has been done doesn't meet this and needs to be redone then generally payment for that aspect isn't due.

In terms of correcting the job and materials, this would be a claim for damages AFAIK, your claim wouldn't be for what you have already spent but rather what you do spend to correct the work. 

For both services and damages, again AFAIK, burden of proof lies upon yourself, if you both agreed to walk away without the tiler being paid any further that would cover you not paying for substandard work carried out. 

If the tiler didn't agree he'd have to take you to small claims to recover this money and, again AFAIK, it would be for him to prove his work was up to scratch. 

If he agrees to cover the costs of work being redone happy days but if not you'd be looking at getting the work inspected by someone independent, having the work done again and then claiming your extra costs over the original price of the job. 

Worth a note, whether another tiler/builder/tradesperson looking for work is classed as independent could be a grey area as it could be argued their opinion is bias to secure a job. 

The advice from the manufacturer regarding the adhesive should be good and whilst you may have purchased this, due care and skill means the trader should have either insisted on the correct materials or not taken the job. 

As a last thought on this generally you should require a repeat performance before a price reduction, what are the tilers thoughts on taking up the tiles, redoing it all correctly for no extra fee (including new materials) above the original quote? If he is refusing to do this then that would spare you the repeat performance aspect and allow you to move to price reduction.

clp10 said:

I had no idea he’d run out. Turns out he’d used it instead of leveller. But, most importantly, the adhesive is not compatible with the porcelain tiles (for ceramic), and on taking advice from the manufacturer and another tiler the tiles all need to come up and be put down with the correct adhesive. 

he should also have used boarding at points because now I will be left with gaps by skirting boards/kickboards as previous tiles were much thicker. The tiles also have a pattern, and he has not ‘joined’ this pattern through the room. 

One point on this, not a tiling expert although have done some at home, leveller is presumably ideal but in terms of cost I'm not sure there's much in it (the leveller might be more expensive given the convenience factor) and as an amateur opinion I don't think adhesive filling unlevel portions is a problem.

As you mention the entire floor is too low due to the difference in thickness of the tiles I would assume you can remove the tiles, leave what ever adhesive remains stuck to the floor and tile over the top at the correct height rather than having to take up all the adhesive and use leveller instead. 

Might be worth a post on a tilers forum such as this

https://uktilingforum.com/

(seems to be many others but this come up first) to get an idea of the best method of correcting the work so if/when you hire someone else to correct the work at least you'll know if what they are telling you is in the right area. 

The issue with such forums is that sometimes you get questionable advice and should tread carefully
Eg  An Screwfix select "expert" in the thread below  claims that despite Mapei stating clearly in there Data Sheets  that Mapei fast set is not suitable for porcelain tiles  they opine that the poster there will be OK which is not very  helpful.
https://community.screwfix.com/threads/ceramic-adhesive-used-for-porcelain-floor-tiles-problem.271004/