Octopus insisting we change old meter for smart meters - can we insist they put meter outside?

MeteredOut

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

On this subject anyone watch the channel 5 smart meter programme. It was all going well til they left the door open at the end to the conspiracies about data and what it can show if it gets sold on. 

And the guy who apparently reduced his *monthly* bills from around £500 to £150 due to his smart meter, but didn't know the difference between kW and kWh...

The show was more about entertainment than education.

Scot_39

Qyburn said:

Veteransaver said:

You also can't move a meter more than a few metres from the consumer unit as there is a limit to how long the thick meter tails (cables) can be (got a feeling they can only be 2m long maximum?), otherwise you'd need to move the consumer unit too 

That's not generally the case, think of all the houses where the meter is outside, not to mention flats where all meters are in the basement.

It may depend on the DNO but sone require a fused isolator if the CU is more than a certain distance, or if the CU is not visible from the meter location. But they dont require the CU to be moved in those cases. 

Iirc 3m tails is the limit before a fused isolator switch required - the tails themselves can be longer if required - not sure max length.

Also iirc RCD isolated unless sure running 50mm below surface or if running in walls with internal metal surfaces present.

My meter fitter fitted manual isolator switches - sure were just physically connected to meter before.

(My CU maybe 1.5m directly above external meter on inside, tails I guess run mainly in brick cavity so not sure about visibility point above)

At least means my own electricians can temporarily isolate CUs without needing certified / DNO permission to break seals on meter.  But last time RCD replaced sure they only used the CUs own isolator - but I guess if need whole new CUs etc.

BellaBlondykeTheThird

MeteredOut said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

On this subject anyone watch the channel 5 smart meter programme. It was all going well til they left the door open at the end to the conspiracies about data and what it can show if it gets sold on. 

And the guy who apparently reduced his *monthly* bills from around £500 to £150 due to his smart meter, but didn't know the difference between kW and kWh...

The show was more about entertainment than education.

Like 99% of people then. So the program will influence 99% of viewers which means lots more smart meter conspiracy here?

Qyburn

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

MeteredOut said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

On this subject anyone watch the channel 5 smart meter programme. It was all going well til they left the door open at the end to the conspiracies about data and what it can show if it gets sold on. 

And the guy who apparently reduced his *monthly* bills from around £500 to £150 due to his smart meter, but didn't know the difference between kW and kWh...

The show was more about entertainment than education.

Like 99% of people then. So the program will influence 99% of viewers which means lots more smart meter conspiracy here?

According to some of the press reports there was a guy on the program claiming that his outfit can identify which appliances are being used, and when. That sounds far fetched. I don't want to say impossible, but can you really pick out use of a kettle or washing machine just from the half hourly consumption data?

MeteredOut

Qyburn said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

MeteredOut said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

On this subject anyone watch the channel 5 smart meter programme. It was all going well til they left the door open at the end to the conspiracies about data and what it can show if it gets sold on. 

And the guy who apparently reduced his *monthly* bills from around £500 to £150 due to his smart meter, but didn't know the difference between kW and kWh...

The show was more about entertainment than education.

Like 99% of people then. So the program will influence 99% of viewers which means lots more smart meter conspiracy here?

According to some of the press reports there was a guy on the program claiming that his outfit can identify which appliances are being used, and when. That sounds far fetched. I don't want to say impossible, but can you really pick out use of a kettle or washing machine just from the half hourly consumption data?

It wasn't though. It was a guy (tin-foil lover) who had saved a copy of a marketing video that was on a website 5 years ago where a company stated they could infer individual appliance usage. The had the CTO from the company at the time on and he said it was an idea, where they could analyse energy usage and try to extrapolate patterns, but the idea never took off.

It's physically impossible for an energy company to know which appliances are in use from a aggregate usage over a single period of time, but they could probably make decent guesses via analysis and heuristics.

DullGreyGuy

Veteransaver said:

You also can't move a meter more than a few metres from the consumer unit as there is a limit to how long the thick meter tails (cables) can be (got a feeling they can only be 2m long maximum?), otherwise you'd need to move the consumer unit too and then it starts getting expensive!

Our meter is about 30m from our consumer unit @veteransaver and our neighbours to the left of us will be even longer (circa 50m)?

In most flats we've lived in the meters were all together in the main entrance to the building and then the consumer units naturally in each individual flat.  

BellaBlondykeTheThird

Qyburn said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

MeteredOut said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

On this subject anyone watch the channel 5 smart meter programme. It was all going well til they left the door open at the end to the conspiracies about data and what it can show if it gets sold on. 

And the guy who apparently reduced his *monthly* bills from around £500 to £150 due to his smart meter, but didn't know the difference between kW and kWh...

The show was more about entertainment than education.

Like 99% of people then. So the program will influence 99% of viewers which means lots more smart meter conspiracy here?

According to some of the press reports there was a guy on the program claiming that his outfit can identify which appliances are being used, and when. That sounds far fetched. I don't want to say impossible, but can you really pick out use of a kettle or washing machine just from the half hourly consumption data?

Yes this was at the end of the program and the shock factor ending.

I would suggest something like a kettles which draws a lot of power instantly and for a short time (spike) could be determined. They kept referencing the end of popular programs on TV for such activity. But other things such as air fryers may not be a different power draw to a hair dryer for example but I guess the time of use at dinner time you could infer a cooking device.

Equally in the morning a power shower for example, through the what is most likely to be happening at that time of day for the majority of households best guess and then profile from there.

That should keep Waitrose stocks of tin foil down for a few months. 

QrizB

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

I would suggest something like a kettles which draws a lot of power instantly and for a short time (spike) could be determined.

From live reporting (like with an Octopus Home Mini) perhaps, but not from 30-minute data surely.

A 3kW kettle for 2 minutes will be indistinguishable from a 200W fridge running for the full 30 minutes.

BellaBlondykeTheThird

QrizB said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

I would suggest something like a kettles which draws a lot of power instantly and for a short time (spike) could be determined.

From live reporting (like with an Octopus Home Mini) perhaps, but not from 30-minute data surely.

A 3kW kettle for 2 minutes will be indistinguishable from a 200W fridge running for the full 30 minutes.

You are right I am thinking in terms of what I see with the Octopus mini 👍

Spoonie_Turtle

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

Qyburn said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

MeteredOut said:

BellaBlondykeTheThird said:

On this subject anyone watch the channel 5 smart meter programme. It was all going well til they left the door open at the end to the conspiracies about data and what it can show if it gets sold on. 

And the guy who apparently reduced his *monthly* bills from around £500 to £150 due to his smart meter, but didn't know the difference between kW and kWh...

The show was more about entertainment than education.

Like 99% of people then. So the program will influence 99% of viewers which means lots more smart meter conspiracy here?

According to some of the press reports there was a guy on the program claiming that his outfit can identify which appliances are being used, and when. That sounds far fetched. I don't want to say impossible, but can you really pick out use of a kettle or washing machine just from the half hourly consumption data?

Yes this was at the end of the program and the shock factor ending.

I would suggest something like a kettles which draws a lot of power instantly and for a short time (spike) could be determined. They kept referencing the end of popular programs on TV for such activity. But other things such as air fryers may not be a different power draw to a hair dryer for example but I guess the time of use at dinner time you could infer a cooking device.

So we've established it's not actually possible, and this is not directed at you (just quoting for convenience) but my constant confusion whenever people bring it up as a concern is:
even if it were possible, WHY?  Why would that be a problem?  What could anyone possibly gain from it other than maybe helping them predict future demand?  How could anyone do anything nefarious with the hypothetical knowledge of when you're boiling the kettle or blow drying your hair???  I mean in a very literal sense, who cares?