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[Successfully Cancelled] Apcoa Heathrow Drop-Off - Forgot to pay the fine.

estevenin
estevenin Posts: 52
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Hi all,

I am a private hire driver, and my car got into an accident. I was given another car temporarily, and as I did a drop-off at Heathrow, I forgot to pay for that Drop-Off.

Just received the "Notice to Hirer", for a Drop-Off happening in late December. (Can add the PCN if requiered, I just don't want to give away the pictures and dates publicly, it is the standard Apcoa template).

I'd be "happy" to pay as I usually do all the time, but I understand that there is now no way to reverse it. So I will go the appeal route. I'v read through the forum, and I'm ready to appeal on the Apcoa website, the following template :

"Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the hirer of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner."

Few more details :

- The vehicule was then hired at the time, so I reckon that the hire company received the PCN, and pointed me as the recipient. I ignore if they pointed me as beeing "the driver" or just "the hirer". If the former, I suppose this would identify me as the driver straight away.

-
There is a picture from the front, it's not very clear so you don't clearly see the face, but it does give away some details of who was driving.

- As I am a private hire driver, technically, when hiring a car, I would be the only single person allowed to drive it. So as long as I am the hirer, the fact that the car is Private Hire would automatically mean that the hirer is the driver. You can see the PCO sticker on the picture.
I ignore if APCOA would know or use that information.

With all that said, I'm ready to send that template over to the APCOA link they provided on the back of the Notice. If it is now too late to do it given that the company have already used that to forward that PCN, I will search for a template on the forum to go through the POPLA route and post it there.

Thank you all

Comments

  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,148
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    Just send this rather than the standard initial appeal template. It will then soon be all be over. 

    As your Parking Charge Notice does not comply with the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4), you are, in law, unable to hold the registered keeper of the vehicle liable for the parking charge; I suggest therefore you contact the driver. As there is no legal requirement placed on the registered keeper to identify the driver, I will not be doing so.'
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,113
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    edited 30 January at 10:02PM
    Have you seen this thread started just ten days ago?...

    Group thread for Heathrow and Gatwick drop off PCNs
  • estevenin
    estevenin Posts: 52
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    Thank you for the feedback and for that Heathrow thread, I have missed it, would be awesome to pin it for the time beeing or add the words "Drop-off" in the title, it doesn't show up in the searches when writing "Heathrow Drop-Off", it does show up a bit more down the page for "Heathrow PCN", but my first reflex was to write Heathrow Dropoff!

    I will follow the instructions then.

    One last question before doing so (That could be added to that thread as well), in case I am a Hirer, and have been identified as one by the registered keeper (They filled up the Apcoa PCN, sending them my name and address). Should I replace the word "keeper" by "hirer" (Does it work the same way) ?

    They already know who the registered keeper is, and they know it wasn't me.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,148
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    One last question before doing so (That could be added to that thread as well), in case I am a Hirer, and have been identified as one by the registered keeper (They filled up the Apcoa PCN, sending them my name and address). Should I replace the word "keeper" by "hirer" (Does it work the same way) ?

    They already know who the registered keeper is, and they know it wasn't me. 
    Use the term 'hirer'.  APCOA won't be picking through whether 'hirer' = 'driver', they'll just cancel. 
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,426
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    Yes replace it with hirer, or just use the bog standard Hirer appeal in the NEWBIES thread.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • troublemaker22
    troublemaker22 Posts: 424
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    edited 31 January at 7:13PM
    @Umkomaas, @estevenin and @Coupon-mad

    Neither of the above templates is suitable for keepers or hirers at Heathrow, Gatwick or any airport or station. They miss the point. It’s not that the PCN doesn’t comply with POFA, it’s that POFA doesn’t apply at airports and stations in the first place. The following or a sensible variant of it like the one in https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6500170/group-thread-for-heathrow-and-gatwick-drop-off-pcns which I wrote is the correct appeal:

    I appeal as [hirer][keeper]*. I am not obliged to identify the driver and I decline to do so. 

    1. You are unable to transfer the driver’s liability (if any) to the [hirer][keeper]*pursuant to Schedule 4 to the the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) because the drop off zones at [       ]* are not ‘relevant land’ as defined in POFA. 

    Furthermore, as [hirer][keeper]*I am entitled to all the defences available to the driver including (without limitation) the following:

    2 The parking charge is not notified until after the contract is entered into and under the principles set out by the Court of Appeal in Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking, does not form part of any contract between the driver and yourselves; 

    3  The signage is not compliant with the BPA Code of Practice;

    [4.  The car was present in the drop off zone for not more than 5 minutes and the driver is entitled to the 5 minute consideration period mandated by the BPA Code of Practice]**

    Any one of the above reasons is alone sufficient to require cancellation of the PCN.

    * complete as applicable
    ** delete if not true 

    In cases of a leased car on relevant land (so not airports) go with the standard hirer appeal which is to deny hirer liability because the documents required by POFA paragraphs 13 and 14 weren’t enclosed with the notice to hirer plus any POFA wording failures you spot. 
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,426
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    Yes you are right.  I should have remembered that thread!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • estevenin
    estevenin Posts: 52
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    Hi all, just an update to let you know that they have cancelled the charge! Thank you all for that template :)
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,426
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    edited 7 February at 7:27PM
    estevenin said:
    Hi all, just an update to let you know that they have cancelled the charge! Thank you all for that template :)
    Great! Easy, innit?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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