Care home fees not subject to contract law?

jessthecat_2

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

MeteredOut

jessthecat_2 said:

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

But they haven't paid for their care - they've (kind of) paid for the care of others.

And the social work isn't being a busybody, they're doing their job.

elsien

jessthecat_2 said:

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

It's a bit rich to be wanting/needing a care home place or local authority support at home then call social workers busybodies when they support with that. You can't have it both ways.
And the financial assessment side is outside of the care needs assessment and completed by a different department once needs have been assessed. The reason being that although finances are a factor, they are not the primary factor and it's important that care needs are properly assessed before money comes into play. 

People need to consider that the law says if they decline to share their financial circumstances then the Local Authority is permitted under the Care Act to reach the conclusion that the person has sufficient financial resources to pay for the full cost of their care and seek a full financial contribution as such (through the courts if necessary).

That's not social workers, that's the government. Perhaps the families in similar circumstances should take it up with them? 

Spendless

A better response to the social worker who asked about finances would have been 'What is the reason you need to know this?' 
Then your father and in turn yourself would have been given the reason behind the question. You could have then double checked that what you were being told was correct. 

sheramber

jessthecat_2 said:

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

And what have they had from the system?

Schooling for their children, child benefit/family allowance, free NHS hospital treatment for their family when needed, subsidised prescription charges and free precription after 60, state pension., winter fuel payment.

Do you think what they paid in is more than the cost of what they have benefitted from it?

tooldle

sheramber said:

jessthecat_2 said:

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

And what have they had from the system?

Schooling for their children, child benefit/family allowance, free NHS hospital treatment for their family when needed, subsidised prescription charges and free precription after 60, state pension., winter fuel payment.

Do you think what they paid in is more than the cost of what they have benefitted from it?

There is no need to disclose financial details if you do not wish to do so. I decline to share my mum’s details. Doing so would be a pointless waste of the busy social workers time. Mum was well above the threshold and would continue to fund her own care. 

I’d add to the above and say, the majority take far more from the state than they contribute.

pollypenny

tooldle said:

sheramber said:

jessthecat_2 said:

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

And what have they had from the system?

Schooling for their children, child benefit/family allowance, free NHS hospital treatment for their family when needed, subsidised prescription charges and free precription after 60, state pension., winter fuel payment.

Do you think what they paid in is more than the cost of what they have benefitted from it?

There is no need to disclose financial details if you do not wish to do so. I decline to share my mum’s details. Doing so would be a pointless waste of the busy social workers time. Mum was well above the threshold and would continue to fund her own care. 

I’d add to the above and say, the majority take far more from the state than they contribute.

This. Just say your relative will be self-funding. 

sheramber

tooldle said:

sheramber said:

jessthecat_2 said:

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

And what have they had from the system?

Schooling for their children, child benefit/family allowance, free NHS hospital treatment for their family when needed, subsidised prescription charges and free precription after 60, state pension., winter fuel payment.

Do you think what they paid in is more than the cost of what they have benefitted from it?

There is no need to disclose financial details if you do not wish to do so. I decline to share my mum’s details. Doing so would be a pointless waste of the busy social workers time. Mum was well above the threshold and would continue to fund her own care. 

I’d add to the above and say, the majority take far more from the state than they contribute.

Nobody is saying you have to.
That is a personal choice but  if a person expects council funded care, which is menas tested, then they do need to disclose their financial affairs.

My comment was about  the refernce to many old people feeling they were entitled to free care as they had paid into the system'. That system pays for as lot more than care homes.

tooldle

My comment was intended to boost your points @sheramber

Exodi

jessthecat_2 said:

sheramber said:

if he had been open and tansparent about his finances he could  have had better facilities.  Maybe not a five star hotel but a more comfortable care home .

From my discussions with the families of many in similar circumstances, elderly people who have spent their entire life paying into the system are loathe to tell a busybody social worker exactly how much money they've managed to save in their lifetime, lest they be awarded the privilege of paying for their care all over again.

Oh dear, but this attitude comes as no surpise.

This reminds me of that study which found that 2/3rds of Americas believed they were above average intelligence ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6029792/ ), it is tiresome that so many people seem to think that they are net contributors to the tax system, when in reality the opposite is usually true.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/23/half-households-get-state-pay-tax/

"Some 36 million people – 54.2 per cent of all individuals – paid less tax than they received in benefits and “benefits in kind”, defined as the imputed cost of NHS and state education services, according to the analysis of Office for National Statistics (ONS) data for 2020/21."
...

The new analysis shows 83 per cent of all income tax is now paid by just 40 per cent of British adults, and the top fifth of taxpayers account for two thirds of the total income for the Exchequer from earnings. The top 10 per cent account for 53.1 per cent.

It means the top fifth of households paid on average £35,399 more in taxes than they received in benefits, while the bottom fifth received £17,648 more in benefits than they paid in tax.

Given that the current elderly people have lived longer than expected, the tax burden of pensioners is higher now than would have been originally calculated when they were paying tax 'into the system'. Luckily for them the state has bottomless pockets so all other taxpayers have made up this shortfall for them.

Unless these elderly people you refer to were all in the upper 1-2 quintiles for income, I'd suggest the vague notions that they 'spent their entire life paying into the system' and that they are somehow 'paying for their care all over again' is totally irrational nonsense.

No idea what the contempt is for social workers, I salute them for the thankless work they do - as in your case, they're just doing their job. Quite strange to have expected means tested care, but have taken offence to being means tested. It make you wonder if this whole mess would have still happened if he wasn't trying to to hide his significant assets.