Bathroom Ceiling about to fall down

Pingu1

I will add that my neighbour knew there was a problem with the shower but hadn't got round to fixing it. Prior to the collapse there didn't seem to be any rush to sort things out.

Pingu1

Some pictures from today:

ThisIsWeird

Pingu1 said:

The latest development is the discovery my neighbours shower is also leaking, confirmed when they used the shower and water started rapidly dripping through the hole in my ceiling. The water upstairs has now been turned off, and I've instructed them not to use the shower.

Thank you for the detailed reply above. Answers to the questions:

1. Yes I pay a service charge and it is broken down. There is a small sink fund, but its my understanding its for the communal areas of the block. The buildings insurance for the block has an excess of £2500 for water damage.

2 and 3. No I don't. Luckily there hasn't been any damage to the bathroom, at least from what I can see. It missed the shower, and the floor looks ok. Only the hall carpet and a shower mat need a clean. The bathroom light is on the back wall and has been unaffected. Same applies to my extractor fan.

4. No

My neighbours insurance won't cover the cost of the repair, so it looks like I have to fund it after all. I've had a bucket catching some of the water, and the neighbours have just helped clean the bathroom. Hopefully I will be able to have a shower tomorrow. One thing I noticed is the damp has affected my sinuses. I've taken a few photos of the damage. The whole bathroom will have to be replaced, it will be damp above it.

I'd really love to get the definitive answer to this - we've had two very similar threads on here recently.

Ok, the £2.5k excess on the Communal Buildings insurance would, I think, pretty much rule out a claim for this. It could be different if the other flat's floor was also wrecked, and this wasn't covered by their content's insurance.

Assuming, tho', that 'all' that needs to be fixed is your ceiling, the fact that the Freeholder won't want to make a claim doesn't mean they are not responsible; this is a 'communal' buildings issue. It has affected two properties, and could have affected more. And it is definitely 'Buildings', so no Leaseholder would be expected to also have their own Buildings policy in place. And, as you didn't cause this, you shouldn't have to pay for it.

So, how to get it fixed when it ain't large enough for a Buildings claim? The person responsible for maintaining the building fabric - the FH - needs to sort it. If there isn't enough money in the sink fund for this, then they do the right thing - get three quotes, choose the cheapest (commensurate with decent quality), and divide up the bill between all the flats. That's what would happen if your wall collapsed, or the roof fell in. 

What a shame you don't have LegProt - please consider adding it on renewal.

One proviso - your subsequent post...

ThisIsWeird

Pingu1 said:

I will add that my neighbour knew there was a problem with the shower but hadn't got round to fixing it. Prior to the collapse there didn't seem to be any rush to sort things out.

Ok, that is firmly getting into the realms of 'negligence' - IF the neighbour was made aware of water getting through and did nothing about it.

But even if you could demonstrate that the neighbour KNEW that their shower was causing a leak that was coming on to your ceiling, and did nothing about it, without LegProt the hassle is on you to take action, and this can be fraught.

Have you approached the ManCo about this yet?

ThisIsWeird

Oh, and that ceiling repair is not at all a big job. The damaged area looks to be pretty isolated - almost certainly it doesn't all need to come down. And, a potential plus - you can get that Artex skimmed over at the same time...

Pingu1

I got my first estimate for the ceiling repair at £1600 including VAT. The plumber is coming back Monday to replace upstairs toilet. My neighbour says I should wait until the shower is retiled...which he is doing himself. I'm concerned the problem is deeper than that, and he is cutting corners. I believe the plumber has offered to look at the shower. Given that he wasn't in a hurry to do it before the collapse, it could be months before I can repair the ceiling.

Pingu1

I'm concerned there is damp and mould between the two flats, that has affected the building structure. I don't know when the leak started, it could have been going on for years.

moneysaver1978

I am with ThisIsWeird - the management company needs to be made aware of this and should really be helping to coordinate (this is part of the "service charge").

Several years ago, when I was renting, I had a leak from upstairs (exactly the same situation), and I contacted both the management company and the landlord who then worked together with the owner upstairs to resolve the issue.

It is not your fault so you shouldn't pay a single penny towards this.

ThisIsWeird

This is standard stuff for Management Companies/Freeholders to sort; they expect to have to do this on regular occasions. 
It's worrying that many Leaseholders are concerned about making such approaches.
It might even be the case that there's a time limit to report this to them. And that would be reasonable, as the FH and insurance co will want to see what the initial damage was, and not have any suspicion that this was worsened due to delay. 
I would take any concern you may have about the flat's repair - especially any involving DIY - as the trigger for you to report this. As days now pass, perhaps have a good reason for your procrastination ready when you do...
£1.6k - you aren't seriously going to entertain paying this yourself, are you? And if you do, and the upstairs flat carries out their own repair, what will you do if a damp stain appears in 6 months from a further leak? 
And you, yourself, make a valid point - how long has some leaking gone on for? If it has been for many months, there may indeed have been enough time for rot to have started in the floor timbers. Do you reckon the plumber is going to search for this?

eddddy

@Pingu1  Unfortunately, there is some very dodgy info posted in this thread. The situation is as follows:

• Almost all flat leases will say that the leaseholder (i.e. the flat owner) is responsible for maintaining and repairing (and paying for) their ceiling

• The suggestion that this is a "communal buildings issue" is a fantasy that somebody has made up. No such concept exists in the real world.

• The suggestion that the management company has a duty to help you with this is almost certainly wrong. The management company only has a duty to do things stipulated in the lease

• If the management company used service charge funds to help you with this, or to pay for repairs to your ceiling, the management company would almost certainly be breaching the leases. Other leaseholders could take the management company to tribunal (and the other leaseholders would probably win.)

(But the management company might come and look because they are interested, and/or they are worried that the structure of the building might be damaged. And they might offer their opinion on things.)


The sad reality is that you must either persuade the person upstairs to contribute to the repair costs, or you'll have to pay them yourself.

And you'll need to find a tradesperson to do the work - although Management Companies can sometimes recommend people they know.

(You could have made a buildings insurance claim on the freeholder's insurance, but as you've mentioned the excess of £2500 makes that uneconomic.)






Edit to add...

I guess there's an outside chance that you could make a claim against your freeholder for negligence (or maybe breach of lease) for arranging buildings insurance with a £2500 excess for escape of water.

You might try to argue that £1000 would have been a reasonable excess.

But it depends on the facts. For example, maybe your freeholder tried to get insurance with a £1000 excess, but no policy was available and/or the premium would have been ridiculous (due to the claims history).