Distance selling issue - Do I have any rights?

Rev

Hi,

Hope someone can give me some advice. I bought a computer motherboard from a UK seller. 

When it arrived I put the system together, it wouldn’t post. The motherboard LED’s showed a fault with both the ram and CPU. As they were also new, I thought it unlikely that they were both faulty. But with no way to check, I disassembled the PC and followed the seller's return procedures, as I had no way to test which part was actually causing the fault.

The seller has come back to me saying the damage was caused during installation and as such they won’t refund or replace.

I genuinely don’t believe it was caused by myself. And quoted both the distance selling regs and consumer contract asking for proof I damaged the item and if they couldn’t provide it then a full refund or replacement.

They’ve replied with this

“With regards to the damage found, this is consistent with installation damage and would have been covered under our insurance if this had been taken out. To however be clear, this was not an accusation of you causing such damage. We are only advising of the condition in which the goods have been received back at Scan. As the goods had been installed, with no damage being reported at any point, this would be deemed as evidence that the goods were not received by you with physical damage. Prior to any form of testing or processing, all goods are subject to a routine inspection. As part of the inspection process, our checks not only cover the item, but also the packaging in which the goods have been received back in for any signs of tampering or transit damage. In this case, there is no evidence to suggest either.

With regards to the Consumer Contracts Regulations, this outlines your rights for goods that have been sold at a distance. For goods that are unwanted/non-faulty, returns would be carried out in accordance to this. The goods would be required to be returned in the same condition as sold and complete. As a fault had been reported in this case, your return was initiated in accordance with the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Unfortunately, due to the goods being received back with physical damage, we are unable to process the goods in accordance to either of these regulations.

In accordance with the information we have and the condition of the goods, we are unfortunately unable to issue a replacement or refund.”

Do I have any recourse here? I paid with paypal.

I’m currently out £150 and don’t believe I caused any damage.

Thanks for any advice.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hello OP

To clarify you are returning just a motherboard? (As you mention you disassembled the PC).

If rejecting because "faulty" for a refund within 30 days the burden of proof lies with yourself, if seeking a repair/replacement burden of proof lies with them (in either case proof is 50/50 rather than 100% certain). 

If cancelling then they are incorrect about the goods being in the same condition but rather than may reduce the refund for "excessive" handling. Their ability to do that depends on the terms, their website terms are a bit lacking in depth (and have an odd clause about acceptance but that's not related to this matter), did they give information about returns in the order confirmation/dispatch emails or on paper with the goods? 

Rev

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Hello OP

To clarify you are returning just a motherboard? (As you mention you disassembled the PC).

If rejecting because "faulty" for a refund within 30 days the burden of proof lies with yourself, if seeking a repair/replacement burden of proof lies with them (in either case proof is 50/50 rather than 100% certain). 

If cancelling then they are incorrect about the goods being in the same condition but rather than may reduce the refund for "excessive" handling. Their ability to do that depends on the terms, their website terms are a bit lacking in depth (and have an odd clause about acceptance but that's not related to this matter), did they give information about returns in the order confirmation/dispatch emails or on paper with the goods? 

Thank you.


Yes just a motherboard. They claim bent pins in the CPU socket. I have pics of the CPU socket that I took right before returning and as far as I can see, there’s no bend pins. 

so essentially unless I can prove it was damaged on arrival I’m out of luck. Which is fine btw just if I was in the right I’d have not given up as £140 loss is a lot to most right now. If I’m not in the right then I’ll take the hit and stop wasting my time and no doubt annoying the seller. 

They have T&C’s on their website but the email just linked to those T&C

I paid via PayPal so could open a case there but, if I’m in the wrong here then I don’t want to cost them money either as that’s hardly fair to the business. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

There's two ways with this OP

The first is that the goods are "faulty" and you could send a letter before action and file with small claims stating the item was damage free when you returned it (apart from the fault you experienced). 

As per a similar thread, I don't know how such things go in court, they'd obviously have to provide some evidence of whatever it is they think has happened.

I guess any retailer could claim anything sent back is not the right item or is damaged and I guess a court would have to decide what is what. 

If you have tracking to show the return was delivered back then Paypal would (I think) find in your favour for an item that didn't work upon receipt.

If Paypal did refund you and the retailer disagreed then the ball is in their court for letter before action and claims.  

The other is to cancel your contract under  The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

This thread:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6499650/refused-refund-because-items-showed-signs-of-wear/p1

is worth a read as it covers the point in detail. 

Assuming we are talking Scan Computers their terms seem OK (cancellation period is possibly 1 day short), they don't mention they'll reduce the refund for diminished value but I'm not sure if they are required to specifically state that. 

For a distance contract (which covers an order on a website) they have to give you this info via a durable medium no later than delivery of the goods, links to their website don't count, with nothing else in the emails you'd either be looking at what they supplied on paper with the goods or if there is a PDF of the invoice you can download from your account that contains the info I believe that meets the requirements too. 

Without being able to meet an agreement it's always a case of letter before action and small claims which is a personal question of headache vs reward. 

I don't know anything about computer parts so can't pass on comment either way on the actual situation with the motherboard not working/pins being bent, etc  

HillStreetBlues

Rev said:

so essentially unless I can prove it was damaged on arrival I’m out of luck. Which is fine btw just if I was in the right I’d have not given up as £140 loss is a lot to most right now. If I’m not in the right then I’ll take the hit and stop wasting my time and no doubt annoying the seller. 

I would continue the claim.
You tried the MoBo and could well be faulty (one part was)  and now the retailer has found damage (that you can't see) and is not going to refund you.
A damaged pins happen normally happen when inserting CPU, not removing them. And if you did do it when inserting then you notice it when trying to lock CPU into place.
It's just a bit to convenient for the retailer for me. 

RefluentBeans

OP are you claiming that the product was sent out faulty (ie the pins already bent)? Or that the product isn’t fit for purpose as the pins shouldn’t bend? Or that the motherboard was faulty and in return the motherboard got further damaged?

If the first (pins pre bent) - did you notice before you attempted installation (as soon as you took off the protective cover)? And if so why would you attempt an installation?

The middle situation (pins should be more durable) is something I personally agree with, but it is well known in the computer sphere that these pins are a nightmare and by far the most fragile components on the board. I think the claim it’s a faulty design would fall on deaf ears. 

The latter situation (further damage to the board in return transit) is very much dependent on two factors. The first being how did you package the motherboard? Did you replace the socket cover, put it back in the anti static bag, in the original box? And the second question being who arranged the return - you or the merchant? If you arranged the transport of the goods then the risk of damage doesn’t transfer until the merchant receives the goods, whilst if the merchant arranges it, it’s on them to sort out with the delivery agent. 

I assume the claim will be that the pins weren’t bent when you sent it back, and so must have been bent on transit back (if your photo shows they’re not bent). 

As above, you have the short term right to reject for faulty products. The issue is going to be that the retailer can’t confirm the board is faulty without putting a CPU in and the bent pins won’t work with a CPU now. Without sounding rude, they need to confirm the board is faulty and not that you didn’t seat the RAM correctly, or install the CPU the wrong way. Additionally if the pins were bent by you, it isn’t faulty it’s unfortunately user error. 

In addition, if this does get taken to small claims court, the judge will look at the probability of circumstances. If the claim is that you damaged these fragile pins during an attempted installation, and that is the reason it’s faulty, that’s more likely to be the case than the pins being bent before you had them (as you should’ve noticed them before attempting an installation).

You will need to show the retailer that the product is faulty irrespective of if the pins are bent, so if you’ve got any photos or videos, along with attempts to diagnose (removing and reseating the ram, trying single channel instead of dual channel, trying different slots etc). If you can prove there is a ram slot issue which is independent to the CPU issue, I think there’s a stronger chance to get them to to offer a refund/replacement (depending on what you want). 

forgotmyname

Are the pictures of a high enough quality to actually make out all the pins and their condition?

Rev

forgotmyname said:

Are the pictures of a high enough quality to actually make out all the pins and their condition?

Yeah the pics I took clearly showed no damage to the pins. 

Alderbank

That is useful evidence (for the seller).

They will claim the pins were clearly undamaged when you received the PCB (as evidenced by your photo) but were subsequently damaged while you had it.

Rev

RefluentBeans said:

OP are you claiming that the product was sent out faulty (ie the pins already bent)? Or that the product isn’t fit for purpose as the pins shouldn’t bend? Or that the motherboard was faulty and in return the motherboard got further damaged?

If the first (pins pre bent) - did you notice before you attempted installation (as soon as you took off the protective cover)? And if so why would you attempt an installation?

The middle situation (pins should be more durable) is something I personally agree with, but it is well known in the computer sphere that these pins are a nightmare and by far the most fragile components on the board. I think the claim it’s a faulty design would fall on deaf ears. 

The latter situation (further damage to the board in return transit) is very much dependent on two factors. The first being how did you package the motherboard? Did you replace the socket cover, put it back in the anti static bag, in the original box? And the second question being who arranged the return - you or the merchant? If you arranged the transport of the goods then the risk of damage doesn’t transfer until the merchant receives the goods, whilst if the merchant arranges it, it’s on them to sort out with the delivery agent. 

I assume the claim will be that the pins weren’t bent when you sent it back, and so must have been bent on transit back (if your photo shows they’re not bent). 

As above, you have the short term right to reject for faulty products. The issue is going to be that the retailer can’t confirm the board is faulty without putting a CPU in and the bent pins won’t work with a CPU now. Without sounding rude, they need to confirm the board is faulty and not that you didn’t seat the RAM correctly, or install the CPU the wrong way. Additionally if the pins were bent by you, it isn’t faulty it’s unfortunately user error. 

In addition, if this does get taken to small claims court, the judge will look at the probability of circumstances. If the claim is that you damaged these fragile pins during an attempted installation, and that is the reason it’s faulty, that’s more likely to be the case than the pins being bent before you had them (as you should’ve noticed them before attempting an installation).

You will need to show the retailer that the product is faulty irrespective of if the pins are bent, so if you’ve got any photos or videos, along with attempts to diagnose (removing and reseating the ram, trying single channel instead of dual channel, trying different slots etc). If you can prove there is a ram slot issue which is independent to the CPU issue, I think there’s a stronger chance to get them to to offer a refund/replacement (depending on what you want). 

I did replace the CPU cover. Put it back in its anti static bag and back in the original box. I then boxed it up in the same box I received it in and returned it. 

They claimed I damaged the pins during installation. I checked them before and saw no damage. Checked them after and again saw no damage. At this point I took pictures of the CPU socket as I assumed I’d be asked for them when I emailed. 

So When they claimed I’d damaged the pins during installation I showed them the images I’d taken. They then changed their stance. They said the images showed no damage to the CPU pins but as there was time between the pics being taken and them receiving the board back. They still couldn’t refund. Which is utterly ridiculous because there’s no way for there not to be time between the pics being taken and them receiving the board back. 

If I’d have damaged the board I’d have been annoyed at myself but wouldn’t have tried to get a refund as I’ve no interest in costing a business money for my mistake. But I genuinely don’t believe I caused any damage. The pins weren’t bent when the board left me so it either happened in transit or when they received it back and tested it. 

In the end I files a case with PayPal and they found in it favour. I’m disappointed though as I’ve used that retailer for years and really hoped it would have been sorted without that.