UC, ESA and Permitted Work

DWPvictim

My son has serious mental health issues. He does Permitted Work up to 16 hours a week. He receives PIP and Contributions based ESA. He and his girlfriend were also recently approved for joint UC as they would like to live together. My questions are:
1. What happens when his contributions based ESA comes to an end in March? Does he need to do anything as he is on a very low income already and loss of ESA would make it even lower
2. His health is very variable. He could sometimes manage more than 16 hours a week and sometimes he isn’t well enough to work at all. He works for a Mental Health charity run company who are very flexible around his condition. When he is feeling well it might benefit him to try work outdoors but this would not be Permitted Work. Would he be better off just on UC and without the constraints of ESA & Permitted work so he could try things that might benefit his future well being? We don’t want to do anything to fall foul of the rules

elsien

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but why would the outside work not count as permitted Work? 

poppy12345

Has he been through a work capability assessment? If so which group is he in? Support Group or WRAG? Support Group has no end date for contributions based. It continues for as long as you remain entitled to it.

As he's claimed UC, if he's in the Support Group then he'll be entitled to the LCWRA element from the start of his claim. If his PIP includes the daily living part and his partner cares for him for at least 35 hours per week then they can claim carers element. (assuming no one else claims this or carers allowance for looking after him)

Permitted work must be less than 16 hours and not up to 16 hours. If he wants to work 16 hours or more then his ESA will end anyway. There's no financial gain to claiming both CB ESA as well as UC but there are some advantages to it. ESA isn't means tested like UC so it could come in useful in the future.

For UC there's no maximum amount of hours or earnings. It's entirely up to him what he decides to do.

DWPvictim

Thank you for such a full response. I don’t know which group he is in and will check but probably not the Support group as he’s been told it will end in March?

The only reason for wanting to come out of ESA is to give him some work flexibility to try different types of work when his health is better than normal. He doesn’t have much money so means testing probably not an issue? I think he had a work capability assessment a while ago but again I’ll need to check.

Permitted Work is very restrictive and all has to be agreed in advance. Our thoughts were that trying different casual ad hoc work E.g. outdoors might help him, but that is not an easy thing to do within the constraints of Permitted Work. (It’s not that outside work couldn’t be Permitted Work, more that trying new things until he finds something that helps him isn’t easy within the constraints of Permitted Work).
Basically we are trying to find ways to improve his mental health with flexible work without falling foul of DWP rules as he has a very low income already.
Will check answers to your questions and come back.

DWPvictim

We have checked with DWP re ESA and he is not in a Support group or any other special category at the moment. They have advised him to call Universal Credit to understand what he will receive from them if/when his CB ESA ends in April, otherwise he will have to wait until they write to him about 6-8 weeks before that date.
Thanks for all your help. We are gradually beginning to understand how the benefits system works!

poppy12345

Looking at your previous thread here https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6500509/how-often-do-dwp-appeal-to-upper-tribunal#latest you said it took 2 years to challenge the decision about permitted work. 

Contributions based/New style ESA is only paid for 1 year unless placed into the Support Group. Therefore his ESA ending in March doesn’t make any sense if he’s not in the Support Group. 

Muttleythefrog

Agree with Poppy.... seems to be an issue lately on this board where 3rd parties (for whom I appreciate it can be very difficult sometimes to get facts and who themselves may not receive truths) are communicating the benefit circumstances of relatives or friends and they don't particularly make sense or are deficient.  If so for those giving advice then there's a very good chance any advice will be flawed based on guesswork. We need facts. Is it that initially he was in the Support group of ESA and has since faced ("I think he had a work capability assessment a while ago") a work capability assessment (WCA) that put him in the WRAG (Work related activity group)... this would explain his endurance on the benefit over years but a date it will end. His WCA status would be carried over to Universal Credit.

poppy12345

Muttleythefrog said:

Agree with Poppy.... seems to be an issue lately on this board where 3rd parties (for whom I appreciate it can be very difficult sometimes to get facts and who themselves may not receive truths) are communicating the benefit circumstances of relatives or friends and they don't particularly make sense or are deficient.  If so for those giving advice then there's a very good chance any advice will be flawed based on guesswork. We need facts. Is it that initially he was in the Support group of ESA and has since faced ("I think he had a work capability assessment a while ago") a work capability assessment (WCA) that put him in the WRAG (Work related activity group)... this would explain his endurance on the benefit over years but a date it will end. His WCA status would be carried over to Universal Credit.

Agreed, this is why I hate giving 3rd party advice because very often there's information missing or incorrect information.

DWPvictim

Hi again 
The information I have given is correct but it’s a long story so I didn’t include it all in my initial post. My son’s dispute with DWP over Permitted Work started in April 2022 and they stopped paying his ESA benefits while it was resolved. He therefore decided to come off ESA and try to work longer hours I.E. more than 16 hours a week with his then employer. He did this for a while but couldn’t cope and had to stop. 

In March 2023 he reapplied and was approved for ESA again - but although approved, they still withheld actual payment of it until Tribunal decision was finalised. He has therefore only been entitled to ESA again for the last 11 months and it is Contributions Based.
It has taken nearly 2 years but Tribunal decision was in his favour and they are now not going to try to recover any money and are currently calculating what they owe him for the withheld ESA from March 2023 to date.
My queries have been about how best to go forward from this position as he still has mental illness which makes his working life very difficult and unpredictable.
Hope this clarifies things.

poppy12345

Thanks, now that makes sense and makes advising so much easier. Has he hasn't been through the work capability assessment process yet then he will need to make sure he reports his health condition for UC and provide fit notes and continue to provide them until a decision is made on the WCA.

He will be referred (usually) from day 29 after reporting his health condition but can be later. (if they forget) Once a decision is made on the WCA if found to have LCWRA then he'll be entitled to extra money from the 4th month of his claim.

DWPvictim

Thank you again. He is going to call UC and talk to them about how best to take this forward and we now know what things to expect to come up.