Car dealer refusing to refund faulty car (long post)

enginestar

I bought a used Tesla at the end of October 2023 from a large car dealer.
Within days it reported a fault. The car dealer was notified and images and videos of the fault sent to them and I ended up requesting a return and full refund within 30 days.

Tesla have confirmed the fault and have said the car needs repairing. They've done this many times in emails to me and I have forwarded all emails and an invoice detailing the fault to the car dealer.

The car dealer is rejecting my request for a refund. 😕

What should I do?
What are my options?
I traded in my old car for £10k and paid £13k on debit card (they don't take credit cards).

I spoke to Citizen's Advice Bureaux and after getting guidance, will be drafting a letter giving 14 days notice tonight.

Or should I get proper legal advice and guidance?

The case is quite simple and I have a ton of evidence to give.

Looking for advice.

The whole story in more full detail (I didn't want to write a whole essay, the above is enough to explain the main problem):

As mentioned, I notified the car dealer and sent them images and video in emails within the first few days.
They ignored me. I sent a few more emails - ignored.
I then requested a full refund within 30 days.

The fault: the car reports that "fast charging is not possible, must get serviced by Tesla".

The car dealer took the car back. Tested by fast charging and found no fault.
I had to take the car back. The next day: the same error was reported.
I now start to give video clips of every time the error shows up.

The car dealer tells me there's nothing to worry about - it doesn't have a fast charging fault.
I drive the car up North on Xmas day. Half way, I pull up at a Tesla fast charger. It doesn't charge. I try 3 more chargers - still doesn't charge. PANIC! I'm in the middle of nowhere on Xmas day (family of 5) - I'll need to call a lorry to recover everyone!

Since then, I've been patiently emailing the car dealer.
I've been speaking to Tesla throughout. They've said the fault is a well known one. They've said on my car it's intermittent. They've said it may well fast charge some of the time - but the nonetheless, the fault remains and needs to be repaired. I have forwarded the written text given by Tesla to the car dealer.

I have a car that I can't risk taking on any medium distance travel - I could be stuck in the middle of nowhere! In the meantime, I have to incur extra expenses when travelling long distance.

When they took the car back initially, they had it for 2 weeks until they looked at. I had to hire a car in the meantime.

I would love to claim back costs incurred as a result of non action especially as they were told very early on by Tesla that the car had a fault.

They have given me a date of 28th February when they can look at the car - they gave that 2 weeks ago.

I've repeatedly asked...

- What will you do different this time that you didn't do last time?
- Tell me what expertise your mechanics have on Tesla cars. Tesla told me that you need to be a specially trained mechanic to be able to diagnose and fix faults - I'm 100% sure they have zero expertise.

I've asked the above 2 points 4/5 times with no response.

Yesterday they said they were rejecting the refund request - after mistakenly thinking that Tesla had said in their last response that they will fix the car for free under warranty - NOT true!

The car has developed a new fault about 2 weeks ago - loud popping sounds under the front the car when the car is parked. I have sent them a video of the fault. You can see the fault here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2LS5VcGxt0

I'm happy to take the matter to court with the help of Citizens Advice Bureaux, but would it be wiser to get professional help?
I'm thinking, I might have to spend money upfront, but that can be fully claimed back, assuming I win in a court?

Thanks if you've got this far reading my post.

(On Xmas day, just before starting to cry, I tried one last Tesla charger - it worked there. Phew. So didn't need to call out recovery. Videos of the whole incident of me repeatedly trying different chargers were sent to the car dealer.)

tacpot12

You might be entitled to professional help if you have home insurance and have legal expenses cover. You should also check your motor policy for this cover.

If you find you don't have legal expenses cover, I would recommend that you get professional legal advice. It shouldn't cost that much for an experienced civil litigation solicitor to review the case, just to make sure you don't try an sue when you have no chance of winning.

You could represent yourself in court, but given the value of used Tesla, you probably should use a solicitor. If you do represent yourself in court, your should buy a copy of Flying Solo, from this website: Representing yourself in court, in the UK? | Court Wingman

There are also lots of useful videos on YouTube on the Court Wingman channel. 

HillStreetBlues

The case will boil down to this.
Can you show there was a fault in the first 30 days, can you show you rejected the car the same time-frame.

born_again

The fault: the car reports that "fast charging is not possible, must get serviced by Tesla".

The car dealer took the car back. Tested by fast charging and found no fault.
I had to take the car back. The next day: the same error was reported.
I now start to give video clips of every time the error shows up.

So what sort of charger were you on when getting this error?

As the definition of a fast charger is A/C 7kWh....

Not as you would expect a DC charger.

So if you were using a DC Rapid charger (50kWh or more) & said fast to them, they will just plug into a normal A/C charger & say. It's working.

Grumpy_chap

What is the actual fault?  (Not fast charging might be a symptom, not the fault.)
What have Tesla quoted to fix the fault?

enginestar

HillStreetBlues said:

The case will boil down to this.
Can you show there was a fault in the first 30 days, can you show you rejected the car the same time-frame.

Yes. I have email trails.

born_again said:

The fault: the car reports that "fast charging is not possible, must get serviced by Tesla".

The car dealer took the car back. Tested by fast charging and found no fault.
I had to take the car back. The next day: the same error was reported.
I now start to give video clips of every time the error shows up.

So what sort of charger were you on when getting this error?

As the definition of a fast charger is A/C 7kWh....

Not as you would expect a DC charger.

So if you were using a DC Rapid charger (50kWh or more) & said fast to them, they will just plug into a normal A/C charger & say. It's working.

I've tested at a Tesla fast charger a few times now - it charges OK.
But as mentioned in my super long post - I got stuck on Xmas day at a Tesla charger.

Tesla have said to me: "There is a fault. It's intermittent - we've seen this fault before. You may well be able to charge at Tesla fast chargers some of the time - nonetheless, the fault is there and needs to be fixed."
I have that in writing in an email that I have forwarded to the car dealer.

Grumpy_chap said:

What is the actual fault?  (Not fast charging might be a symptom, not the fault.)
What have Tesla quoted to fix the fault?

Tesla quoted £300 to fix the fault. Right now, it's not about this small amount. Now I want a full refund + costs after wasting so much time.

tacpot12 said:

You might be entitled to professional help if you have home insurance and have legal expenses cover. You should also check your motor policy for this cover.

If you find you don't have legal expenses cover, I would recommend that you get professional legal advice. It shouldn't cost that much for an experienced civil litigation solicitor to review the case, just to make sure you don't try an sue when you have no chance of winning.

You could represent yourself in court, but given the value of used Tesla, you probably should use a solicitor. If you do represent yourself in court, your should buy a copy of Flying Solo, from this website: Representing yourself in court, in the UK? | Court Wingman

There are also lots of useful videos on YouTube on the Court Wingman channel. 

The Wingman is great! I'm going to get my paperwork ready. The problem is: it's going to take me many hours to compile. I guess I have no choice.
I'm very very confident for my case. It's abundantly clear the car dealer have been fogging me off. So getting legal help is the way to go - since, my assumption is that I can claim all costs back. (Equally, should I lose, then I will be liable to pay for their legal costs.)

Grumpy_chap

enginestar said:

Tesla have said to me: "There is a fault. It's intermittent - we've seen this fault before. You may well be able to charge at Tesla fast chargers some of the time - nonetheless, the fault is there and needs to be fixed."
I have that in writing in an email that I have forwarded to the car dealer.

Grumpy_chap said:

What is the actual fault?  (Not fast charging might be a symptom, not the fault.)
What have Tesla quoted to fix the fault?

Tesla quoted £300 to fix the fault. Right now, it's not about this small amount. Now I want a full refund + costs after wasting so much time.

 

I'm very very confident for my case. It's abundantly clear the car dealer have been fogging me off. So getting legal help is the way to go - since, my assumption is that I can claim all costs back. (Equally, should I lose, then I will be liable to pay for their legal costs.)

I would not be as certain of my case as you state you are.

I understand why you are aggrieved but not every fault on a used car, even if present at the time of delivery, is grounds to reject the car. 
The car has to be assessed against the bench-mark of a used car and the fault typically has to be significant.
I would not consider a fault quoted at £300 to fix as significant.

This may be better resolved by seeking the costs of the repair carried out by Tesla to be covered by the suppling Trader.

The following article might be worth a read:
https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/rejecting-a-car/#1-can-you-reject-your-car-for-any-fault-you-find

DullGreyGuy

Has Tesla actually inspected and properly diagnosed the matter themselves or is this a remote contact centre agent telling you (in the way Apple will say they'd have given you an automatic free replacement when you say you didn't buy from them but you have to see a technician when you say you did buy direct)?

To exercise your 30 day short term right of rejection requires you to prove the fault (unlike a general fault in the first 6 months)


How much did you pay for the car? I'm guessing more than £10,000 in which case you are outside of the small track court limits and would be liable to pay the dealers costs were you to sue and lose. 

born_again

I've tested at a Tesla fast charger a few times now - it charges OK.
But as mentioned in my super long post - I got stuck on Xmas day at a Tesla charger.

Tesla have said to me: "There is a fault. It's intermittent - we've seen this fault before. You may well be able to charge at Tesla fast chargers some of the time - nonetheless, the fault is there and needs to be fixed."
I have that in writing in an email that I have forwarded to the car dealer.

Who @ Tesla have you spoken to?
So what speed charger?
Tesla have various chargers of various speeds. So was it a supercharger, type 3 or 4? Or a destination charger?
Did you try moving to another charger at that location? Could be as often happens, the issue is the charger, not the car.
So what/where did garage test the charging.

enginestar

Guys, I have an update to my post. I'm hoping someone can give me guidance on which way to turn next.

28th Feb: I took the car to the dealer.
NOW: they accept the fault is there!!
NOW: they will pay for the repair of the fault.
BUT: they will NOT give the full refund - because when they first tested, they could not detect the fault.

1. They are willing to pay for a repair of the fault that I reported within 30 days and for which I asked for a full refund.
2. Tesla gave a full report of the fault and confirmed it needed repairing - given to the car dealer within the 30 days.
3. The car dealer do not have the capacity to diagnose the fault - Tesla have stated this to me. The fact that they simply charged and could not find the fault - doesn't mean anything - the fault is still there. Tesla gave this to me in a statement email - that I forwarded to the car dealer.

PROBLEM:

I have been advised that because I drove the car and used I can't now expect to get a full refund.

I think that's unfair! I had no option but to use the car.

I would have to go to great expense otherwise to arrange alternative transport.

But... is this what the rules of the law clearly state?
I need to have this confirmed.

I know that if I had a laptop or TV in a similar way, then I would be entitled to a full refund - even if the item was used.

I know this is a long post!! Not sure if someone will be able to read all details and track and read my last post and give an answer that will help. I thought I'd try anyway.
I'm hoping someone will be able to point me in the right direction. I've tried googling for 'consumer legal help' and all I get is firms who are into injury claims. I've contacted quite a few places but 95% say they can't help.

Alderbank

enginestar said:

I have been advised that because I drove the car and used I can't now expect to get a full refund...(edit)
But... is this what the rules of the law clearly state?
I need to have this confirmed.

I know that if I had a laptop or TV in a similar way, then I would be entitled to a full refund - even if the item was used.

Yes, that is what the rules of law state.

The reason for the difference is because your Tesla is classified as a car whereas a laptop or TV is not.

The actual wording is:
Consumer Rights Act 2015 Section 24 (10) No deduction may be made if the final right to reject is exercised in the first 6 months...unless...the goods consist of a motor vehicle.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/24

Unless your trade or profession is driving and you bought the car for that purpose (taxi driver, fast food  delivery, etc) the reason why you bought the car, whether to commute to work, make pleasure trips, take your mother to hospital, etc. has no relevance to your consumer rights.