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LONG STORY ABOUT UKPC/ DCB

1/5/17     my daughter signed a tenancy agreement with allocated parking.
15/5/17   she actually moved into her flat.
17/5/17    UKPC ticket her car for no permit - she hadn't actually yet got one.
               She appeals to UKPC.  No response received at the time.
6/6/17      a second ticket.  She ignores it because she's only just appealed the first one.
                No further communications until:
30/6/20   buys her own  house and moves.
Feb 21    two separate collections letters received from DCB Limited (ie DCB Bailiffs) adding the   
               usual £60 and citing Parking Eye vs Beavis.  They were already nearly a month old from 
              creation date.
              
              We challenged them and submitted an SAR and FOI to UKPC and DCB for proof of right
              to issue tickets, signage etc.  No response.

Jun 22   DCBL (ie DCB Legal) start chasing the May ticket.   Goes all the way through the claim,
              mediation and court submissions for hearing in December.  

Sept 22 we resubmitted the SAR.  Both companies claimed not to have received it, UKPC
             provided a response to appeal from June 2017 offering to accept £15. 

             After mediation DCB tried to negotiate £200 but we made them settle for the £15 and they
             withdrew the claim 2 weeks before hearing.

May 23 DCBL send a court claim for the June ticket.   P***d odd Scouser now.

             Same process all over again - we claimed primacy of contract, forbidding signage, GDPR,
            absence of landowner authority etc.  We also anticipated a second withdrawal and
            launched a large counterclaim specifically to block that.

We no longer had the tenancy agreement but I obtained a copy of the original lease from the Land Registry showing the allocated space.  They produced a document signed off by the management company, plus a car park map (no resemblance to the LR version) signed by another management company acting as Secretary.  No landowner or leaseholder input.  No variations to lease.

In 2022 I sent out the defence docs to DCB and Yasmin Mia wrote to say she had shredded them as they had not come from the court, and in an email from that time I documented this.  

29/11/23 At the hearing, the DCB solicitor asked for the claim to be set aside due to lack of defence docs.   Judge was wise to what was going on - we told the tale of why I hadn't sent them out to DCB (Yasmin Mia), also they had been emailing the court when they knew perfectly well that I was a lay advocate but they didn't email me for a copy (in fact on 4/10 they had emailed me at 9.30 offering a mutual withdrawal of claim, and again at 10.30, then emailed the court at 10.41 to say they had no defence docs).  They then claimed the couldn't open the copy I had sent (again they didn't email me back to say so), even though the court had managed to print them and the judge was holding them in his hand.  So they were already trying to withdraw their claim before the hearing without seeing the defence, based on the half dozen lines on the defence form.

The solicitor then asked if he could still get a copy from the court - we leapt on this and asked why they hadn't done that in the past 5 months and added it to their costs, on top of all the other options stated above.

The judge, in the interests of fairness, actually arranged for their solicitor and us to take a copy away and said he was re-setting the defence date for end January and hearing date for February so that everybody would sing from the same hymn sheet with the same docs, and there would be no excuse for anyone to not have the defence.

2/12 the court sent out a new hearing date for 20/2/24, which we received on 8/12.   

6/12 DCB withdraw their claim.   We strongly objected, using the correct form, so they are now only going to defend their counterclaim, and asking for the earlier defence and counter-defence docs to be disregarded (that's because they have no claim).  We also requested leave to increase our counterclaim once I realised how much time this lot had cost us and priced it up (they wanted a breakdown of our claim costs and damages so I obliged!)

10/12 I emailed the court a copy of my email to DCB with the defence docs, and the delivery receipt and a copy of their SAR reply which also admitted receipt of the defence docs so they can't say they haven't received them again.   I didn't add that to the Defence pack, I simply stated it for the court record so DCB won't know that it's gone in, in case they try their tricks again.

We re-submitted our defence (marking all the changes and deletions in red), as the judge had said we could, and used their photos and their so-called "landowner authority" in our defence pack.

We are counterclaiming £10k for all the hours spent on these two cases (6 working weeks (180 hours) at £25 per hour over two claims), expenses and court costs.  In this we are also claiming breach of GDPR as they have not evidenced landowner authority to access data from the DVLA, breached DVLA KADOE contract, illegally shared data with 3 collection agencies and a tracing agency without any right to do so, and the fact that their delay in taking 7 years to conclude their claims now means that the retention period will be13 years on file instead of 6, which is inappropriate. That's a mortgage retention period.

We are also claiming harassment across 7 years and 3 addresses.  And, of course, trespass on my daughter's vehicle and interference with her legal right to enjoyment of her contracted home and car space.

Luckily today she cleared out boxes from our move in 2020 and found a whole trove of letters from the various parties, including letters sent by different collection agents to two addresses on the same dates, a letter telling us the first ticket hadn't been pursued when it had obviously gone to court,  replies to SARs saying all they had on record was her name and address yet in a later SAR told us they had shared her data. Letters from three different collections companies variously telling her she owed £80, £100, £160.  Letters from different collections companies arriving 24 hours apart and going to her old address as well as the new one.  This is on top of DCB Bailiffs and DCBL.

We put in another SAR this year - UKPC ignored it and DCB wouldn't name the agencies used so tomorrow's task is to send another bunch of tightly worded SARs to all parties and ensure they reply.  

Last week they offered to pay us £80 if we drop the counterclaim!

I send everything by email to these slippery charlatans and I make sure they are always delivery receipted, and the court as well.  I keep the receipts.

It's probably helpful to us that they have already withdrawn their case from the same county court for exactly the same vehicle in exactly the same space for tickets 3 weeks apart.  When they doctored their photos as well as using a proof copy instead of a time dated one, we used the photo from the May ticket (last year's case).   

In their new defence UKPC (ie DCB) are still claiming that the defence docs weren't served, even though they were specifically given them on 29/11 with a view to allowing them time to submit a defence for a re-scheduled hearing.

Still claiming landowner authority in a witness statement, even though they only have a document signed by the management company, which we have now submitted as our evidence.

They re-submitted the copy of signage, which was illegible in the original pack, but have still photoshopped it - the wording is still fuzzy where they've enlarged it and the T&Cs are still barely legible, and the clear image is on a grey brick wall whereas the car park photos clearly show that the walls are all green, and it's not time stamped so it could be located anywhere.     

I'm not really sure how they plan to defend a counterclaim which wouldn't have arisen if they hadn't wasted 7 years of bullying for payment of claims which they have pulled - twice - in the same court for the same vehicle in the same space -  especially when we've re-submitted their "evidence" (or lack of) to support our counterclaim so the judge will still have to look at it because their evidence has now become our new evidence! 

We put them to absolute proof of landowner authority in the first hearing and they're now relying solely on their re-submitted witness statement so obviously don't have it.   

The SARs and the GDPR claim have really rattled DCB so I'm going to send some more SARs to all parties tomorrow, including the collection agencies, and make DCB tell us which tracing agency they used and when they were instructed.  They've all been trying to duck and UKPC have ignored us so it's time to rattle their cages again.

I'm half expecting them to try and buy us off again before the hearing date because they really do not want this case to go to court.  They have pulled every trick to stop it.

Fingers crossed and wish us luck.



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Comments

  • Sorry - a few typos and mixed tenses.  It's late!
  • fisherjim
    fisherjim Posts: 5,906
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    edited 22 January at 9:40AM
    Wow! Brilliant work like a dog with a very juicy bone!
    Please keep us updated.
  • paulstevens64
    paulstevens64 Posts: 119
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    Brilliant report. I nearly fell off my chair when I read £10,000 counter claim! Well done. I really hope that you make it to court, and that UKPC/DCB get the public dressing down that they richly deserve.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,115
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    Excellent read describing a great fight back. 
    We also requested leave to increase our counterclaim once I realised how much time this lot had cost us and priced it up (they wanted a breakdown of our claim costs and damages so I obliged!)
    On the basis you've already counterclaimed at £10,000, adding more to that might take the case beyond the Small Claims Track and into Fast Track territory where costs might be greater (win or lose), so I'd recommend doing thorough research before bumping up beyond £10k. 

    I wonder if the forum's legal eagles might be interested in reading your thread?

    @Johnersh
    @bargepole
    @troublemaker22
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • Le_Kirk
    Le_Kirk Posts: 21,905
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    edited 22 January at 1:11PM
    Sending multiple SARs could result in them charging you quite legitimately if they have already supplied your data under the first request. Like others, I am waiting for the successful outcome.
  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,059
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    edited 22 January at 1:22PM
    Fascinating epic tale so far, and what a ballsy counterclaim!  Is it just for costs or damages for distress for abuse of your data?

    You have only talked about a defence, not a Witness Statement.  Did you mean WS?

    Have you done the witness statement and a skeleton argument?  I think you need the latter, to adduce the applicable law.

    Just checking you are all over this because the hearing order requires:

    - you to pay the hearing fee because you are the Part 20 Counterclaimant.  Have you done that?

    - one or other party to provide a complete (both sides, everything from claim form onwards, including the court directions and amended defence) bundle including the emails and the discontinuance, etc., EVERYTHING about this claim (not the first claim).  It might be you that has to so that as a single paginated bundle. 

    If you wish, please show the hearing Order so we can check the directions to make sure that you do all that is required of you.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
    CLICK at the top of this/any page where it says:
    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • Johnersh
    Johnersh Posts: 1,284
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    30hrs a week on this? That's essentially full time. You won't recover at that level, especially if other work has been done in that time. The claimed costs also appear to double count cost for what is materially the same facts, instead of apportionment of time between the cases.

    The litigant in person rate is £19 p/h. The o/p is unlikely to recover more than that. Even on the generous hours of 180, that probably sees costs limited to c. £3,400 or thereabouts, absent clear financial losses. That may be ambitious itself, absent a determination as to unreasonable behaviour by the PPC.

    The o/p must follow the course they feel best, but my view is that this so overcooked as to potentially do harm to what might otherwise have been a reasonable argument.


  • bargepole
    bargepole Posts: 3,231
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    I agree with @Johnersh above.

    The chances of a Judge awarding £10k on the counterclaim are, in my opinion, thinner than the low fat spread on an anorexic supermodel's crispbread.

    There is a persuasive precedent in VCS v Ferguson, where the Defendant successfully counterclaimed £1,500 based upon the Claimant's breaches of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997, and the Data Protection Act 2018. This seems a more reasonable, and legally correct, approach.


    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 57, lost 14), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and have a Graduate Diploma in Civil Litigation from CILEx. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
  • Umkomaas
    Umkomaas Posts: 41,115
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    The above reflect my worries, hence linking in the legals of the forum. I hope it works out for the OP, to deliver a real bloody nose to DCB Legal, but by the same token hope that the potential over-egging of the pudding doesn't result in serious disappointment (including for me!). 
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case Defences/Witness Statements, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask. .

    I provide only my personal opinion, it is not a legal opinion, it is simply a personal one. I am not a lawyer.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

    Private Parking Firms - Killing the High Street
  • We have submitted a Witness Statement, although I keep on calling it Defence.  I addressed each aspect of our claim section by section with reference to the law.  I've read the cases and court decisions to check for relevance to our defence.

    We are only going to send out further SARs because they have avoided giving the information we requested in the first place.

    I've deliberately capped the costs and damages at £10,000.  These are to cover actual costs, and damages for loss of time, harassment, GDPR, and distress.  The time element isn't so unreasonable as we're not solicitors with a team of researchers. 

    They didn't submit an argument for the first case because they mediated and settled for £15.  I've had to go back over everything again because they actually submitted documents and photos (rubbish as they were).  Their only clear photos are neither time stamped nor contextual; there is also a digital proof with the wrong penalty amount, and the time stamp on the close ups is considerably bigger than on other more general photos, suggesting enlargement of the image, and they are subsequently fuzzier on the edges of the letters.

    I've copied and catalogued the trove of collections documents to show how many and how frequent (and confusing) they have been, and sent willynilly to old addresses even after they had the new one.

    I'm also copying and cataloguing the SAR correspondence to illustrate how they've tried to avoid providing the info for those.

    We found DCB's letter from last year telling us it was wrong to send the defence pack directly to them.

    The court stuff has to be filed by Friday so I'll go through it all the supporting documents again and get these additional docs in by tomorrow.  I've made an index sheet and numbered them so he doesn't get too overwhelmed by paper. They'll go by email and I'll get a receipt.

    I called the court this morning to make sure everything was in order so far, as we had heard nothing back, and was told it has gone all up to the judge.  It will be up to him whether the counterclaim can proceed as we are now the ones bringing a claim.  If and when the judge approves the increased counterclaim, we can then pay the additional fee.






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